Is Europe on its way to a major religious resurgence?

[St Exupère]

Hi,

Though not historical per se, the thesis of the title will call for many historical examples and comparisons. It sorts of follows the discussions engaged here:
http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=5646538#post5646538

I defend the theory that will the collapse of progressist and materialist ideologies, plus the incredibly fast spread of islam within Europe, the whole continent is set for a religious resurgence. Note that this has been prophetized by many - notably by André Malraux ("the XXIst century will be religious, or will not be").

I am more particularly interested, as a catholic myself, in the timid and early signs of christian resurgence in Western Europe. My theory is that it is seldom noticed because it is happening at the same time as "mainstream" European cultures are rapidly voiding themselves of any christian component, and that we are just starting to see the profound anthropological and social impacts this will have (in family lives, education, justice, social violence - mainly).

Italy is a particularly interesting case where some reports mention an increase in office attendance (~33% of the entire population) for the first time in... decades, if not centuries. There is also a clear and strong political resurgence of Catholics there, led by the clergy.

Your thoughts.

 

[Steph]

Not yet I think.

The young people need, to come back to church, a "new wave" of priest.
But the old people, who often make the bulk of church attendees, are not ready for that.

I had the example in my town. We had a new priest, relatively "modern" one, that attracted a lot of young people, and the attendance actually increased.

But his methods were not to the liking of some old people (let's prey in latin and make mass a boring period of thinking-ourselves-better-when-looking- down-at-all-the-others-who-are-all sinners-as-they-are-not-me), so they made pressure to have him send to another parish. The result will probably that old people will come back to their old routine, and the young will desert the church again.

To put it differently, I think to get a renewal of catholicism, it should come through the new generation, and perhaps rethink the mass so they are again attracted to it and catholicism.
This can be done only after the current generation of old people disappear.

And I strongly doubt that the current brilliant idea of the Pope to say again the mass in latin will help much.

 

[Plotinus]

I defend the theory that will the collapse of progressist and materialist ideologies, plus the incredibly fast spread of islam within Europe, the whole continent is set for a religious resurgence.

To defend this you need, first, to show two things:

(1) That "progressist and materialist ideologies" are likely to collapse
(2) That such a collapse would bring about a religious resurgence

I also don't see the relevance of the spread of Islam here, especially given that Islam has spread through Europe primarily because of immigration rather than because people are converting to it. Perhaps the anti-immigration lobby will turn out to be right and Europe will be mostly Muslim within a couple of decades; but even if that's so, it won't be because of a resurgence of Islam within Europe but because of an influx of Islam, which isn't really the same thing. Or is the claim that the influx of Islam will somehow stimulate other religions to resurge themselves? If so, what is the evidence for such an effect?

 

[St Exupère]

Steph,

Thanks for the answer. Some things I agree with, some I do not - at all.

I believe one of the worst trends of catholicism in the recent decades and basically since 1789 is ultra-montanism. The fact that it has too often had a tendancy to protect its interests, retract from the outside world as it was evolving, been defensive instead of offensive, and while continuing to believe in an absolute truth, forgot that it must be announced and practiced through charity. Yes, there have been many movements that went against such trend in the later part of the XIXth and early XXth, but they did not succeed and vanished in the trenches of WWI.

At the same time, Vatican II has brought about the exact opposite to this trend; I believe the spirit of Vatican-II was correct, the inspirations of some of its enablers such as Cardinal Henri de Lubac, spot on. Yet, as often the case, it launched about the opposite movement: neglected liturgy, intentions of charity but laxism about the truth and the dogma, flirts with marxism of the one hand, portestant liberalism on the other; etc...

The debate will go on forever whether it is the first trend that emptied the churches, or the second. I believe it is none of them, or rather a little of both since none managed to launch a popular, counter-culture.

What I believe a lot of young people today returning to church (and arguably, they are a very small minority yet there is a trend) are motivated by two quests:
1/ charity, empathy, altruism, equality - ie all these "values" that have irrigated French and European culture at large through socialist and leftits mocements, yet are in complete institutional and cultural crisis today
2/ quest for faith, for authority, for absolutes, for solemnity, for truth

The Church of pre-1962 had 2/ without 1/, the Church post 1962 had 1/ without 2/

John-Paul II, and Benedict XVI right now, have started the difficult exercice to reconcile 1/ with 2/. It is an immense task, it will take time, but it is exactly the right thing to do. On whether the clergy, in particular priests and bishops, have enough charisma to sustain it on the long term, is unknown. In France I have doubts.

In my church in Toulouse, which is pretty much lambda, office is in vernacular - yet, we have a choir of ~10 amazing singers who often sing in latin. You have to attend to see the sheer solemnity, grandeur and beauty of their Sanctus Dominus, Ave Maria and Te Deum. I can just feel the crowd, among which many young persons and many large families, loves and feels for it, and how it strengthens our communion and even, our faith. A beutiful liturgy is essential to such renewal, and there is a lot to learn from pre-1962 in that respect.

Cheers

 

[Steph]

What is the main message you should get during a mass at the Church? The main message of catholicism? Well, at least in theory?

 

[St Exupère]

What is the main message you should get during a mass at the Church? The main message of catholicism? Well, at least in theory?

Steph, a Catholic mass is not at all about getting a message, it is about the re-newed sacrifice of Jesus-Christ for the redemption of of our sins, and the communion this enables for the community (eucharist).

Now besides this, scriptures are read and commented (by a priest) - who is always trying to get a message accross which everyone can take home. But this is secondary, really.

 

[Steph]

Steph, a Catholic mass is not at all about getting a message, it is about the re-newed sacrifice of Jesus-Christ for the redemption of of our sins, and the communion this enables for the community (eucharist).

Now besides this, scriptures are read and commented (by a priest) - who is always trying to get a message accross which everyone can take home. But this is secondary, really.

Your answer explains partly why I don't think the renewal of Catholicism will happen then

 

[Heretic_Cata]

Doubtfull.

I know this was the subject of another thread in OT, but i'd just like to point out again how much i disagree with the reality of this part :

plus the incredibly fast spread of islam within Europe

@Steph: Old people die.

And I strongly doubt that the current brilliant idea of the Pope to say again the mass in latin will help much.

Now that's a very bad move.
The way i figure it, a mass' purpose is supposed to give the audience a message. But if that message is in far away wierd languages how on earth will they expect the message to go through to the masses. It's like saying that "The teachings of Christ are only for those smart/holy enough to speak latin. The rest of you will just have to obey us."

I've said this before, i'll say it again: The new guy's a n00b, bring back John Paul II.

Now besides this, scriptures are read and commented (by a priest) - who is always trying to get a message accross which everyone can take home. But this is secondary, really.

From my perspective, i think that they should pay a lot more attention to that secondary part. I haven't been to many sermons myself; but i go to the Easter sermon every year. The first 5-10 minutes the priest says the usual Easter sermony stuff and sometimes adds some new songs to it . After that, 5 minutes he talks about stuff, the "secondary" stuff. Every year it's intresting stuff - this year we also got anti-american, anti-globalisation, anti-McDonalds, anti-Cults and Nationalistic speech which was all a very nice touch to the whole thing. After that, 5 minute break when mostly everyone is leaving and only the old people remain. Now starts a 1hour (?) sermon of usual repetitive stuff (i think).
What i'm saying is that he knows that after they pass out the light people start leaving, so the priest uses that time to get a message across. It's like prime-time television.

 

[Steph]

Doubtfull.
@Steph: Old people die.

Yep, my point exactly. It may happen later, now is a bit to soon.

@ St Exupère (what did you do of the y?): Why do you think someone who was going to the mass could go to it again (or start going to it), thus helping in the renewal of catholicism?

 

[aronnax]

If masses were in latin, and this becomes a standard, then everyone studies latin to try and understand them because now they have the time(maybe) and money and education. Then latin is revived. And becomes Catholic Europe's main language. And with Latin, Catholic Europe is united! And the pope can preached a New Crusade to Unied Europe to reclaim Jerusalem from "evil jewish hands" in Latin...

I gotta stop eating those M&N.

 

[St Exupère]

I know this was the subject of another thread in OT, but i'd just like to point out again how much i disagree with the reality of this part

It varies greatly from one country to the other, and from places within that country. In a place like France, it is an overwhelmingly true, fact. Even businesses start to adapt to it (banks, food stores, etc...). From what I have gathered it is similar in the scope in Belgium and the Netherlands, a little less so in the UK, Germany and Scandinavia, much less in most other European States.

Now that's a very bad move.
The way i figure it, a mass' purpose is supposed to give the audience a message.

This is not the purpose of the mass; we are talking about a religion here, ie a celebration, not a philosophical tea salon or a political meeting.

But if that message is in far away wierd languages how on earth will they expect the message to go through to the masses. It's like saying that "The teachings of Christ are only for those smart/holy enough to speak latin. The rest of you will just have to obey us."

Let me clarify:
1/ officially, offices are recommended to be delivered in vernacular
2/ latin has never been banned from offices
3/ what B-XVI is said to do (should be official tomorrow as a matter of fact) is to "liberalize" the latin mass, ie instead of restricting it to exceptional parishes, allow those masses to be held, if necessary, in all parishes potentially

And a couple of comments:
1/ there has been an incredible pauperisation of liturgy in some western European churches since the 1960's, which according to ALL led to erosion, and loss of faith of many. Liturgies celebrated as they were before 1962 have iundoubtedly kept that beauty and grandeur, the idea is to re-introduce some of this within most, and eventually all, offices. Sure you don't need latin to do this, but liberalizing those celebrations can help and IMO will help. I have given an example in my previous post, at my parish.
2/ you would be surprised to hear that amongst these parishes within the Church, that celebrate either with pre-1962 liturgy, or with solemn and beautiful liturgy, both the number of young people attending as well as the number of sacerdotal vocations, are incomparibly higher than in the rest of the Church.

After that, 5 minutes he talks about stuff, the "secondary" stuff. Every year it's intresting stuff

I am not saying people should not pay attention, or that it is un-interesting; I am saying it is not the prime prupose of a celebration, and should never be if we don't want to void our faith from its content.

 

[St Exupère]

@ St Exupère (what did you do of the y?):

Nothing to do with the aviator-writer; see here:
http://www.jacobins.mairie-toulouse.fr/expos/saintjac/textes/panneaux/exupere.htm

Why do you think someone who was going to the mass could go to it again (or start going to it), thus helping in the renewal of catholicism?

Many potential reasons, when one listens to those who do so:
- give a meaning to their lives
- quest for absolute, for truth
- quest for authority, boundaries
- sense of moral and social vacuum, depression because of constant individualism and rationalizing
- sense of emptiness, uselesness
- urge, at certain key moments in life (mariage, children), to build upon something solid, something beyond ourselves, something that will last forever
- sometimes quest for one's identity (family, Nation) in a globalization context
- dormant faith that needs revitilizing, in order to have the courage to transform it into charity
- simple call to adore God
- attration to something by definition, free and usually beautiful
- etc...

 

[Steph]

Nothing to do with the aviator-writer; see here:
http://www.jacobins.mairie-toulouse.fr/expos/saintjac/textes/panneaux/exupere.htm

Ah, I'll end the day less ignorant, which is always a good thing.

Many potential reasons, when one listens to those who do so:
- give a meaning to their lives
- quest for absolute, for truth
- quest for authority, boundaries
- sense of moral and social vacuum, depression because of constant individualism and rationalizing
- sense of emptiness, uselesness
- urge, at certain key moments in life (mariage, children), to build upon something solid, something beyond ourselves, something that will last forever
- sometimes quest for one's identity (family, Nation) in a globalization context
- dormant faith that needs revitilizing, in order to have the courage to transform it into charity
- simple call to adore God
- attration to something by definition, free and usually beautiful
- etc...

Ok, now, from this list... Which one are linked first to Jesus Christ dying for our sins and Eucharisty, which one are linked first to a message or communication exchange that you can get from the priest?

 

[scy12]

Αs technology provides the solutions , the false reality of after death salvation and the convenient lie of Religion plays less and less part politically and as a philosophy/belief , as influence to our lives. I believe forutantely Religions will die out and i have seen enough evidence to believe they will become more unpopular as time goes on.

 

[luiz]

To defend this you need, first, to show two things:

(1) That "progressist and materialist ideologies" are likely to collapse
(2) That such a collapse would bring about a religious resurgence

I also don't see the relevance of the spread of Islam here, especially given that Islam has spread through Europe primarily because of immigration rather than because people are converting to it. Perhaps the anti-immigration lobby will turn out to be right and Europe will be mostly Muslim within a couple of decades; but even if that's so, it won't be because of a resurgence of Islam within Europe but because of an influx of Islam, which isn't really the same thing. Or is the claim that the influx of Islam will somehow stimulate other religions to resurge themselves? If so, what is the evidence for such an effect?

This sums up my thoughts.

Though in Brazil there was really a resurgence of religion in the last decades, in the hands of the evangelicals, I doubt such a thing would happen in the wealthier and more educated Europe (the evangelical movement became popular in Brazil with simplistic formulas and is basically a refection of the widespread poverty around here). Basically the decline of the once all-powerful Catholic Church was followed by a rapid growth of the more radical evangelical churches (of the "buy your piece of heaven" kind).

 

[Nylan]

If there is going to be a religious resurgeance, I don't think it would be mainly Catholic or any of the most common sects of Christianity, but more likely a "fresh face". Most of Christianity is declining in numbers, but some of the newer churches, most notably the LDS church, are increasing at a significant rate (12 million+ members, going on 13 million before long).

 

[Yui108]

Well AMerica has just been going through it's , and is now emerging as a strongly religious/ evangical nation. I suppose you can expect similar action in Europe.

 

[neviden]

I don't think there will be any major religious resurgence anytime soon in Europe. Neither Islam nor Christianity. If anything there will be weakening of the existing religions and an increase in "I don’t care about god" group.

 

[Plotinus]

Well AMerica has just been going through it's , and is now emerging as a strongly religious/ evangical nation. I suppose you can expect similar action in Europe.

America hasn't had a religious resurgence: all that happened there was that the decline in religion that occurred everywhere in the west in the 1960s stopped, whereas elsewhere in the west it continued. In no important respect is the US more religious today than it was, say, twenty or thirty years ago. Of course, the churches themselves may have changed in various ways during that time, and certainly the role of religion in politics has changed in important respects (for a variety of reasons), but that doesn't mean the country is more religious. Indeed you could make a very good case for saying that the kind of "Christianity" which predominates in American public life, including politics, has got very little to do with real Christianity in most senses - but that would be another topic.

 

[Traitorfish]

Many potential reasons, when one listens to those who do so:
- give a meaning to their lives
- quest for absolute, for truth
- quest for authority, boundaries
- sense of moral and social vacuum, depression because of constant individualism and rationalizing
- sense of emptiness, uselesness
- urge, at certain key moments in life (mariage, children), to build upon something solid, something beyond ourselves, something that will last forever
- sometimes quest for one's identity (family, Nation) in a globalization context
- dormant faith that needs revitilizing, in order to have the courage to transform it into charity
- simple call to adore God
- attration to something by definition, free and usually beautiful
- etc...

Erm... I just spent 14 years in the Catholic education system, and can say without question that few young people would give a damn about more than a handful of them and would be unlikely to turn to the Catholic Church to deal with them anyway. Maybe in France, but not here.
The people of modern Europe aren't the peasants of the middle ages, they're not stupid. They can live a meaningful life without having to devote themselves to that rotting behemoth commonly known as the Catholic Church.