Is Isreal overacting?

[zulu9812]

It's interesting that attitudes of the British and American people are almost exactly reversed. I guess the people aren't so supportive of Tony Blair's insistence on standing "shoulder to shoulder" with the US.

 

[Tenochtitlan]

It's also interesting because the presence of the Israeli PR office in Europe is nowhere near as strong as it is in the United States.

 

[Rambuchan]

Yes, that's true. "Londonistan" anyone?

 

[GinandTonic]

It's interesting that attitudes of the British and American people are almost exactly reversed. I guess the people aren't so supportive of Tony Blair's insistence on standing "shoulder to shoulder" with the US.

There is a difference between shoulder to shoulder and being a poodle.

Im all for the first, against the latter.

 

[Mott1]

It's also interesting because the presence of the Israeli PR office in Europe is nowhere near as strong as it is in the United States.

Yeah, it must be that damn American propaganda machine that brainwashed me into supporting Israel.

 

[Tenochtitlan]

Yeah, it must be that damn American propaganda machine that brainwashed me into supporting Israel.

It's true

 

[Sh3kel]

Israeli, and I think if anything we're showing restraint...

Nope, Israel should have dealt with this the old fashioned way; Covert forces/Special Forces dealing with Hezbollah on the ground. Hell, maybe Israel are doing this as well as the Aerial Bombardment.

I value my fellow servicemen higher than I do Lebanese civilians - and apparently so does the head nutball Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah.
The Hizzbollah has made it painfully clear that they are willing to trade two lives for over about 1,000 prisoners. Under their terms, that means the life of a single Israeli is worth 500 Lebanese or Palestinians, If we are to use the Hizzbollah's own ratio of lives against them, and considering we've lost 23 soldiers and about 10 civilians so far, we'd have to kill 16,500 people to "get even".
So if both sides agree that their lives are worth less than our, I can honestly state that if saving two servicemen requires us to bomb the village they're in to stony pieces of rubble, I'm fine with it.

Not to mention the fact covert operations require us to endanger our own soldiers. The whole point of the Air Force is to bomb people into submission without having to endanger massive ammounts of soldiers.

A good solution to Hizbollah kidnapping Israeli soldiers? Easy! Step 1; inform Hizbollah that Israel will not trade soldiers for prisoners, period. Step 2; tell the Israeli people that security for soldiers will be bulked up, and do it. Step 3; begin/continue cladestine actions to rescue Israeli soldiers and remove Hizbollah from southern Lebanon.

Step 1: Was done in Gaza, and the way we replied to that was delivered via artillery shells. Much like Russia, Israel does not negotiate with terrorists - it destroys them.
Step 2: Done. Two weeks after the first kidnapping in Gaza, a special-forces segment of the Hizzbollah infiltrated Israeli territory, fired two Anti-Tank missiles at patrol HMMWVs, killed 3 soldiers, kidnapped two and wounded two more. Four more lives were lost in a tank as purusit ensued and another Infantry Sgt. got killed while salvaging the tank. We soldiers are here to serve as flak jackets so that we take the hits for the civvies.
Step 3: The best way to conduct covert operations is with a massive diversion - hence the firing of over 160 rockets at Israel's northern border while the Hizzbollah commando performed their kidnapping raid into Israel. We're doing the same - only we've got a hell of a lot more gear than they do.


The only way to get terorrists to stop their actions is to make them understand you're even more screwed up in the head than they ever will be. If after 1967 we gained a reputation of being a group of exceptionally highly-trained military which defeated in open combat three militaries at the same time, and tripled its land area in just 6 day, we were required to prove it wasn't a fluke back in 1973 and again in 1976 in Entebbe.
What is apparently "sheer insanity" is actually a calculated means of combat - that's why the series of Aerial terrorist attacks in the 1970s which included to multiple hijacking of airplanes stopped in Entebbe: The Israeli military proved it was so out of its ****ing mind that it was willing to violate airspace of not one, not two but three unfriendly nations, invade an airport terminal, engage the local military and militia, extract the hostages and return home at the cost of one Israeli soldier killed, one critical wounded and three hostages killed.
The whole message of Entebbe was that you don't **** with the Israelis because they're a bunch of insane maniacs. We reiterated that message in 1982 when we bombed the nuclear reactor of Iraq and are now required to make sure the Hizzbollah understands once again - we're out of our ****ing minds. Don't poke a stick at a leopard unless you're perfectly ready to have a gigantic wild cat jump at your face and chew your nose off.

 

[Grisu]

I do believe they are overreaction. they are justified in crossing the border hunting down hezbollah operatives, but bombing Beirut, etc., is really going over the top.

what surprised me was that even Micheline Calmy-Rey (Swiss Foreign Minister) is calling it and overreaction. Usually the executive here is really carefull not to step on any toes.....

 

[Eli]

What surprises me is that people just dont understand that proportion isnt necessary. Was the American DoW on Japan and the decision to fight until Japan's unconditional surrender in any way proportionate to the Pearl Harbor attack? Of course not and it was never meant to be.

 

[GinandTonic]

So Sh3kel, you are saying this is a Keyser Soze move?

Thing is after the Munich Olympics world opinion was sympathetic to pulling a Keyser Soaze, and that was a covert ops Keyser Soze. This is just pissing the world outside america off.

 

[Rambuchan]

The only way to get terorrists to stop their actions is to make them understand you're even more screwed up in the head than they ever will be.

I hope you see how this simply does not work, has not worked, and creates more strife, violence and general dischord.

(I did read your whole post btw, this was it in a nutshell imho).

 

[Sh3kel]

So Sh3kel, you are saying this is a Keyser Soze move?

Thing is after the Munich Olympics world opinion was sympathetic to pulling a Keyser Soaze, and that was a covert ops Keyser Soze. This is just pissing the world outside america off.

Aside from the French, we haven't actually recieved any messages stating we're wrong in our actions - just that we're over-reacting in how we do them. That's hardly "pissing off the rest of the world", it's just making them "mildly uncoformtamble at the fact the Israelis are still insane and violent enough to blow stuff up for seemingly trivial reasons". Our main export is defense technologies and our most valuable resource are high-tech industries, and since we lack virutally everything else - we like this position. It makes us threathening enough for the Arab nations to stay in line and avoid doing something stupid, and makes us credible enough to continue exporting our defense technologies abroad.

 

[Sh3kel]

I hope you see how this simply does not work, has not worked, and creates more strife, violence and general dischord.

(I did read your whole post btw, this was it in a nutshell imho).

I am unaware of the existance of a Kurdistani state in Turkey, a basque nation in Northern Spain and Southern France or a Chechen Independent entitiy in Russia.
These are three examples of how while the terorirsts might still try and hurt civilians - they are unable to succeed in their goals. I never said we're going to erradicate them all and stop terrorism at 100%. That's unrealistic and impossible. We are, however, going to ensure none of their goals are achieved, since they are also equally unrealistic and impossible.

 

[Steph]

I think Israel reaction is as justifiable, and will have the same effect, as the invasion of Iraq by the US after 9/11.

 

[Rambuchan]

I am unaware of the existance of a Kurdistani state in Turkey, a basque nation in Northern Spain and Southern France or a Chechen Independent entitiy in Russia.

Firstly, check the news from Spain please. Secondly, there are many other goals to consider, see below.

These are three examples of how while the terorirsts might still try and hurt civilians - they are unable to succeed in their goals. I never said we're going to erradicate them all and stop terrorism at 100%. That's unrealistic and impossible. We are, however, going to ensure none of their goals are achieved, since they are also equally unrealistic and impossible.

You are assisting Hizbollah in achieving quite a few of their goals with this approach, exemplified by the current actions. These goals they are currently achieving are:

a) Drawing world attention to their cause.
b) Painting Israel in a negative light; morally, politically, militarily, diplomatically.
c) Highlighting the double standards applied in the Security Council by the USA (& UK less so) with regard to the Arab Israeli conflict in general.
d) Creating a legitimate opportunity to strike back at Israeli military targets.

Your mission is handing all this to Hizbollah on a silver plate. Do you see that?

 

[Steph]

You forgot a few ones:

e) Increase the support from Lebanese people for Hezbolah (who defend them against the "evil" invaders)
f) Undermine the lebanese government to be sure they are not strong enough to take care of Hezbolah by themselves

 

[JoeM]

As a state I don't see what other options Israel have.

As human beings I don't see how they can kill so many people.

 

[Steph]

As a state I don't see what other options Israel have.

Try to strike the correct target?

Here is an example
- You are having dinner in the same resaturant as John and Paul, which are sitted in the table just beside you.
- John steal one of your fries
- You kill Paul for that.
- Paul is dead, and he did nothing.
- John still has your fry.

 

[Sh3kel]

Try to strike the correct target?

Here is an example
- You are having dinner in the same resaturant as John and Paul, which are sitted in the table just beside you.
- John steal one of your fries
- You kill Paul for that.
- Paul is dead, and he did nothing.
- John still has your fry.

What if they're Siamese Twins and you didn't see John steal your fries?

 

[Rambuchan]

Well posted Steph. I find agreement with both posts #76 and #78.

Edit: Cross-posting with Sh3kel there, awaiting your response.