Is it better to chop or keep forests?

[Charles 22]

i save trees, but if there is a great abundance then ill chop, or if they cover some good water tiles ill chop. i dont really cut em down early in game becuase of the cheapness of buildings that early in the game.

i do chop any tree that spawns however, and sent its bonus to the nearest city to help out. if i have far too many too chop, then i improvise so that military units get the woodsman II promo in case of war.

That's something I would like to think about more. I would like to make more terrain specialists. I always make a couple city defenders promotions for most cities, and then every other unit gets strength, or anti-horseback, or anti-gunpowder promos in particular, and I don't think too much of terrain promos. As far as defending the borders go, however, I would think that you're usually better off with hills defense, because not only is the hill terrain bonus weaker, therefore needing more help, but the hills have more valuable items if mined (a level two woodsman in your own territory may be so strong they might just bypass it - good to keep them from getting into a border woods tile though). Having a level two woodsman defending a hex in the middle of nowhere with another unit that is more offensive, such as cavalry, would make for a pretty interesting situation however, as it could add to recon a bit and aid in knocking off stray units.

 

[Kamino]

Forest + Lumbermill + Railroad = Good Tile

Good tile but (too) late tile.

 

[uberfish]

Railroad/lumbermills are superior to the overhyped state property workshops because they give health to offset your coal plants, come at only a slightly higher tech level, and communism is a dead end tech.

I tend to keep 2-4 forests per city. When you're in whipping mode they're a good tile to work in between whips. Clearcutting a city that has no fresh water and is in the middle of flatlands is a mistake. Being on an overlapped tile is another very strong reason not to chop a forest as it gives the health bonus to both cities.

 

[UncleJJ]

Railroad/lumbermills are superior to the overhyped state property workshops because they give health to offset your coal plants, come at only a slightly higher tech level, and communism is a dead end tech.

I tend to keep 2-4 forests per city. When you're in whipping mode they're a good tile to work in between whips. Clearcutting a city that has no fresh water and is in the middle of flatlands is a mistake. Being on an overlapped tile is another very strong reason not to chop a forest as it gives the health bonus to both cities.

I concur, and running a specialist economy I often find that leaving 2 or 4 forests on plains tiles (nearly useless before Biology in a SE) is the best use. The health bonus is useful for the generally larger populations in a SE where my best cities get health problems particularly around the time when Drydocks and Factories are needed... the Forge I can handle and its happiness benefit makes it a big net plus.

Thanks for the tip about sharing forests, that is a nicety of overlapping cities that had not occured to me

 

[pixiejmcc]

Also I keep forgetting to chop forests outside the 20-tile fat cross...there's no reason not to.

Basically I have a hard time parting with my last 2 forests. I usually save 2, sometimes 4. More if it's a really late city I placed with lumbermills available soon.

Good point, but I think when you get to a certain distance, may be 10 tiles away, the forest actually yields nothing at all.

Late game it will sometimes make sense to keep a forest, so you can make a lumermill (on plains I think I'm right in thinking this acts like a grassland hill mine).

But generally I chop, a lot.

 

[pixiejmcc]

In my present case my strategy is to never chop before you get the full chop bonus. Of course there is no bonus for chopping jungle so there is no delay there. My strategy when it does come down to chopping trees is to do this primarily with hills in the early going (after full chop bonus), the reason being that there's usually enough clear land to build cottages and farms on, and since when I want to mine hills this makes it the best place to first start chopping, since the hills are more likely to sprout resources the longer they're operational.

For the reason u mention I often chop forests on hills first. However, it never occured to me that resources are more likely to spring from these, but this makes sense. Having said that I'm not sure if a hill doesn't require a mine before a resource will randomly appear on it. Also random-appearing resources are a rare thing, so not worth worrying about too much.

 

[pixiejmcc]

The idea being that not putting anything on the tile will make it more likely that the same tile will sprout trees anew, therefore giving me that much more I can chop. I can also confirm that this game definitely does that, that is it will fill in a tile that previously had trees on it. I even suspect that even if you have once had a mine on a hill, for example, and then raze that tile, that it is possible that same tile will sprout trees again, should it be adjacent to another tree tile.

Good thinking Charles, as if I needed more reason to chop trees.

Someone mentioned they look for sites with an abundance of forests for xtra production in that city.

As a general rule I chop rush neccessary buildings - obelisk, granary, library, forge, barracks etc. If I need urgent defence, I will stop making improvements and chop rush. Alternatively if I want to rush the enemy I will chop rush (yet another reason to have an abundance of workers handy). Recently in an MP game, I planted very close to the enemy with a city that had almost solely forests in its fat cross, I transported most of my workers there and hacked away. Very quickly indeed I had enough units to take him out.

As If it needed repeating, chopping forests depends on the situation. If u don't need the production, or the tile right away, might as well leave it and enjoy the health bonus as well as save the mfg for an emergency, or a newly available wonder or other building.

 

[Shillen]

If I have an odd number of forest tiles in the city's range then I definitely chop one down as soon as possible. If I have an even number then I will not chop them unless I have an urgent need for something. Whether I urgently need an obelisk to grab a resource or compete with an AI's culture or I'm building a wonder that I think I might get beaten to or something. I'm also more likely to chop the forests down if I'm playing an expansionist civ or if I have an extreme abundance of health resources. But usually like someone else said earlier I leave 2-4 forests per city (it's rare for me to have a city with 4, though).

 

[Xerol]

My "rules":
-Chop forests on hills first. After the forest is chopped, I can either mine the tile (netting an extra hammer total) or give it a windmill (keeping the hammer count but adding extra food and commerce).
-Chop grassland forests next to rivers next, then plains forests next to rivers. The forest "eats up" the free commerce for a tile next to a river, so chopping it gives up 1 hammer for 1 commerce, and eventually either more food or more commerce depending on whether I cottage or farm it, or later on watermill it. Watermills are extremely powerful with State Property, so I'll save a few riverside tiles for Watermills if I know I'm gonna be playing the game into the industrial age. They're not bad from the start, either, 2/1/1 being one commerce more than the 2/1/0 from a forest next to a river.
-Leave plains forests not next to river, unless needed to chop workers/settlers/wonders. These tiles can't do much without the forest until later in the game anyway (CS for spreading irrigation, or State Property for the workshop food "bonus" - I rarely cottage plains that aren't next to a river because they're usually not worth the "loss" of a food point), so leaving them at 1/2/0 for now and then lumbermilling/railroading later makes for some powerful late-game tiles, without any intermediate loss in productivity.
-As mentioned above, leave them on tundra. A coastal tundra city with one or two food resources can support quite a few lumbermills late-game, and I've managed to get surprising cities out of the frozen wastes of the north (or south).

Generally, though, I chop all but 2 or 4 around my first cities (leaving the rest for an extra health point or two) and lumbermill most of the ones around later cities. Of course, it's entirely situational, and if I need those hammers to rush to a certain city-site, pop out some extra workers, or win a wonder race, those trees are comin' down.

 

[Charles 22]

For the reason u mention I often chop forests on hills first. However, it never occured to me that resources are more likely to spring from these, but this makes sense. Having said that I'm not sure if a hill doesn't require a mine before a resource will randomly appear on it. Also random-appearing resources are a rare thing, so not worth worrying about too much.

I'm not clear what you meant in the first sentence, but having trees on a hill beforehand isn't what makes it more likely to sprout a resource, but the building of a mine itself on a hill. I'm not sure if any resources that may be on hills typically, such as gold and silver, will ever sprout without mines. In any event the mines increase that chance.

Over the course of a marathon game, I find about 50-60% of my hills have resources on them, though I'm not entirely sure whether they were technically sprouts or not. The sprout rate on a long game like that is really pretty good and certainly isn't exactly rare.

 

[Stylesrj]

I just automate my workers. They'll chop when they have to, or they won't, I just don't care about the forests. I worry more about the barbarians trying to break through my defensivel ines and pillaging my roads and mines on some resources!

 

[Charles 22]

Good thinking Charles, as if I needed more reason to chop trees.

Someone mentioned they look for sites with an abundance of forests for xtra production in that city.

As a general rule I chop rush neccessary buildings - obelisk, granary, library, forge, barracks etc. If I need urgent defence, I will stop making improvements and chop rush. Alternatively if I want to rush the enemy I will chop rush (yet another reason to have an abundance of workers handy). Recently in an MP game, I planted very close to the enemy with a city that had almost solely forests in its fat cross, I transported most of my workers there and hacked away. Very quickly indeed I had enough units to take him out.

As If it needed repeating, chopping forests depends on the situation. If u don't need the production, or the tile right away, might as well leave it and enjoy the health bonus as well as save the mfg for an emergency, or a newly available wonder or other building.

The only time I chop to help prod is when I might be building a key wonder I want, and then it's probably not more than a couple of chops, as i'm reasonably certain that up to the mid-game that's all it will need on the noble level, assuming, that is, that I was the 1st or 2nd to discover the tech involved.

The funny thing is that since I chop in that manner, I do not ever chop to speed units or a quick defense, so my units typically swarm well enough to cover any two civ attack in the area. I play like that so much, by anticipating things, though certainly not always right, that it doesn't even occur to me to alter the strategy for situations where I might lose the new city. The way I figure it, in most cases, if I don't have what's needed to hold it, I would rather lose it, as it's not worth much anyway, then buildup a bit more for a counterattack. Of course if you have a religious civ, the smart thing to do would probably be to switch to slavery if you're not in it at the time. Usually 4-5 whipped up units will stem the tide until the slower regular builds get out; completely free of chopping if desired.

 

[Calavente]

I'd rather chop very few times :
_to boost a wonder I think will be a close-call
_more a chance if I have the ressource : otherwise it is 30H wasted.
for that I preferentially choose :
-out-of-fat-crosse trees (less hammer but... 20H is still 20H)
-river forests.

now I will also chop hill forests : to get the % chance of poping ressource

for finding new ressources : for me in normal, as I work mine intensive, I usually have one ressource found in a mine before 1AD, usually it is copper iron, gold or gems so really a boost.
there are 3 things :
-ressource can only be found in mines (other than the one pre-placed on the map)
-I think that for the chance of a ressource to appear, you have to work the mine with a citizen. so just mining won't do it. You have more chance to find a new ressource if you work mines rather than use farm for the whip
-some times, you won't know you had discovered coal or aluminum because you are too early in tech. you will just discover a source of coal or aluminum somewhere where there wasn't initially but you won't even know about it.
-do someone knows what is the "small chance of discovering a ressource" : 1%, 1/1000 each turn? and were is it on the xml/python?

 

[Mysticjon]

I strongly agree with the Hill Chop - I have had wonderful luck in the past with spawned hill resources (one time as many as 3 in one fat cross!). since then I have always mined hills as early as possible - especially grassland hills.

My second point is just one of personal practice - I normally only chop after mathmatics, and then it is only for wonders - My main tactic is to get as may Engineer wonders in the same city. Normally can get 'Great Wall', 'Hanging Gardens' and 'Hagia Sofia' from a chopping rich location. - especially if I can get my hands on stone/marble.

Then - out roll the great engineers.

 

[cabert]

do someone knows what is the "small chance of discovering a ressource" : 1%, 1/1000 each turn? and were is it on the xml/python?

what i do know is you can discover a ressource only on a mine you're working, where there is no special.

 

[Leifmk]

Good tile but (too) late tile.

Indeed.

Generally speaking hammers are worth more the earlier you can get them, because you gain the benefit from whatever they're used to produce for more turns. Effective economic growth is necessary for any and all paths to victory.

 

[weasel77066]

Indeed.

Generally speaking hammers are worth more the earlier you can get them, because you gain the benefit from whatever they're used to produce for more turns. Effective economic growth is necessary for any and all paths to victory.

Thats not 100% true. Actually, CHOPPING is worth more earlier in the game, due to the inflation of building cost in the later game and the frequency of reforestation.
Shields per turn, later is also adjust by RRtracks, factories with power, specialists and iron works,etc... By keeping forests through the later game, the shield increase can make up for the increased cost of buildings and units whereas those 40 shields from chopping isnt even a third of a turn difference in production speed

Good point on earlier the building the better, but it has to be wieghed in full on a per city basis, and its not true of all buildings. Earlier commerce the better more reflects this idea. Culture building are definitely better as early as you can get them, and anything that increases commerce. Personally I would never chop for a building (only a wonder or to make room for a cottage)

Later in the game I'll squeeze a few cities in between older established cities to utilize the unworked areas of the nation, typically by this time these areas are already improved so that when the new city is built, a temple takes like 2 turns to build.. so catching up with "basic" building requirements takes no time at all and there is no real need for a concrete culture rating. Thats because I dont chop the fringes of the forest either, unless needed. I garrison these new cities with units built in a production city thats pumping out an infantry a turn.

 

[pixiejmcc]

Later in the game I'll squeeze a few cities in between older established cities to utilize the unworked areas of the nation, typically by this time these areas are already improved so that when the new city is built, a temple takes like 2 turns to build.. .

LOL. Pre-improved cities. I like it.

 

[ProbStat]

Is there a place to edit the number of production hammers given for chopping? The change in my v. 1.61 patch did not seem to take.

 

[ProbStat]

All right, I figured out how to fix my problem. Anyone else who runs into it (and who doesn't want to continue to benefit from the ill-gotten benefit of the bug ...) can find my correction here: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?p=4490594#post4490594