Is It Murder If A Cop Is Killed While Chasing A Traffic Violator?

[Formaldehyde]

Another strange incident in Florida:

Suspect in fatal chase charged with attempted murder of another Hernando deputy

BROOKSVILLE — Michael James Anthony, transferred Wednesday night to the Hernando County Jail, has now been arrested on a charge of attempted murder of a law enforcement officer.

During a chase early Sunday — which led to the death of Hernando Deputy John Mecklenburg after his patrol car struck a tree — Hernando Sgt. Brandon Ross also lost control of his vehicle and struck a pickup truck and a power pole. He suffered minor injuries.

Anthony faces a charge of attempted murder because his vehicle rammed Ross' off the road, Assistant State Attorney Donald "Sonny" McCathran said he was told by investigators.

The 35-year-old felon from Silver Springs faces a felony murder charge in Pasco County. During the pursuit, authorities say, Mecklenburg crashed and was flown to St. Joseph's Hospital in Tampa, where later he died.

In Hernando, Anthony also faces a reckless driving charge and two counts of fleeing and attempting to elude a law enforcement officer. Some of those counts will likely be consolidated, McCathran said.

On Wednesday, the Sheriff's Office released a video showing roughly four minutes of the pursuit. It was shot just after 4 a.m. from the dashboard camera of Brooksville police Sgt. Ed Serrano. As Serrano neared the intersection of E Jefferson Street and U.S. 41 in downtown Brooksville, Anthony's vehicle drove through a red light going the opposite direction. Serrano spun his car around and chased after him.

Anthony, who never appeared to drive more than about 40 or 50 mph, soon began veering between lanes and nearly struck a line of divider poles in the road. Near the video's end, Anthony — in what appeared to be an intentional move — missed slamming head-on into two oncoming cars by just feet.

Anthony could also be charged with two counts of assault with a motor vehicle for that encounter, McCathran said.

Video mentioned above

Is it attempted murder to intentionally strike a police car?

Should cops even chase people who are driving on the wrong side of the road and are only wanted for traffic violations? Aren't they endangering more people by doing so, even at 4 AM when the roads are nearly deserted?

 

[JollyRoger]

The suspect could probably technically be charged under the felony murder and attempted murder statutes, but in my opinion, it is Floriduh once again overcharging a suspect at the risk of outright jury rejection. These knucklehead prosecutors need to start using their discretion to efficiently go after lawbreakers on the most relevant charges, not pushing charges to the boundaries to garner the love and affection of Nancy DisGrace.

 

[sophie]

I guess cfc couldn't keep you down for too long, eh Forma?

 

[MobBoss]

Is it attempted murder to intentionally strike a police car?

Let me ask you a question in return. Why should it not be considered attempted murder? If the guy deliberated rams a cop car into a telephone pole or a tree, the act is (a) intentional and (b) carries a possibility of being fatal to the cop.

So?

Should cops even chase people who are driving on the wrong side of the road and are only wanted for traffic violations? Aren't they endangering more people by doing so, even at 4 AM when the roads are nearly deserted?

If the roads are deserted, how are they endangering more people?

 

[nonconformist]

i have a feeling this is one of those thread where everyone agrees, ramming something with a 2 ton mass of steel *is* attempted homicide?

 

[MobBoss]

i have a feeling this is one of those thread where everyone agrees, ramming something with a 2 ton mass of steel *is* attempted homicide?

Well, I got a feeling as well that 1 or 2 will actually disagree with that.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Does that mean that many NASCAR participants frequently engage in attempted murder at nearly every single race? That people who engage in demolition derbies or figure eight racing should be charged with very serious felonies? That people who intentionally strike other cars which have occupants should be charged with attempted murder no matter the circumstances or lack of actual injuries?

I think in this particular case that if he had actually struck someone head-on at high speed that it would be a case of attempted murder. But he apparently did no such thing even though he had ample opportunities to do so. His speed wasn't even that high, and I got the impression from the video that he was actually trying to avoid hitting people.

But the issue that I think is far more germane is that is it murder if a police officer dies while chasing you for traffic violations?

 

[nonconformist]

Yers, consentualy sport is equivalent to ramming a law enforcement agent, who is not consenting, nor has safety gear.

Welp, I guess shooting people abroad is fine, cos people commit suicide by firearm.

 

[MobBoss]

Does that mean that many NASCAR participants frequently engage in attempted murder at nearly every single race? That people who engage in demolition derbies or figure eight racing should be charged with felonies? That people who intentionally strike other cars which have occupants should be charged with attempted murder?

Oh wow.

[sarcasm]Yeah, NASCAR participants ram other people with intent to kill. Also, I notice a distinct lack of telephone polls and trees on a NASCAR track. Dont you?[/sarcasm]

Btw, there are indeed ramifications for NASCAR drivers that cross the line in this regard. You knew this didnt you?

As to demolition derbies...dont those participating have to sign a hold harmless agreement or liability waiver in case they get injured? Neither do the participants in those events are ramming the other particpants to cause bodily harm as opposed to merely stopping their vehicle.

So, your best counter to a criminal ramming a cop car off the road into a tree is sporting events?

Wow.

EDIT: Form, people that use vehicles to strike or attempt to run over others get charged with felony assualt or worse all the time. Its common.

As far as the murder charge itself - its obvious its being charged because the criminal rammed the officer. If an officer died as a result of chasing a criminal violator, I would say its situational. The person running from the cops could very well face at minimum a manslaughter charge if it was determined that his actions eventually led to the officers death, but its certainly going to be dependent upon the mitigating facts of the case itself.

 

[nonconformist]

Urgh, I hate edits after someone's replied, they smack of intellectual dishonesty.

I think you'll find that sports have a legal waiver from murder/assault charges. NEXT!

 

[warpus]

Is it attempted murder to intentionally strike a police car?

Doesn't that obviously depend on the situation?

Sometimes yes, sometimes no.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Exactly. As JollyRoger pointed out, this seems to be more a matter of overreaction and grandstanding than anything else. It is a tragedy that a police officer was killed in such a senseless manner. But chasing people on the wrong side of the road is inherently risky, even at 4 AM on a nearly deserted highway.

If a police officer fell down stairs while chasing a suspect who was apparently only suspected of committing a misdemeanor and died, would it be murder?

 

[MobBoss]

Exactly. As JollyRoger pointed out, this seems to be more a matter of overreaction and grandstanding than anything else.

I dont think so, if the intent of the violator was to intentionally run the police car into an obstacle. 'Course its up to a prosecuting attorney to convince a jury of that or not.

And yes, being a police officer is a risky job.

 

[JollyRoger]

[sarcasm]Yeah, NASCAR participants ram other people with intent to kill. Also, I notice a distinct lack of telephone polls and trees on a NASCAR track. Dont you?[/sarcasm].

So you concede that "intent to kill" is the relevant mens rea?

 

[MobBoss]

So you concede that "intent to kill" is the relevant mens rea?

I concede I dont know the Florida law concerning the charge or its elements/specifications. Do you?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Once again, from the video he really didn't seem to be intent on killing anybody. According to the police, he apparently never even exceeded the speed limit. And "ramming" the police car was quite possibly the officer trying to spin him out. There is no evidence that this actually occurred. The original story claimed that the officer struck another car instead of the suspect.

 

[nonconformist]

So you concede that "intent to kill" is the relevant mens rea?

Overt.

 

[Farm Boy]

So you concede that "intent to kill" is the relevant mens rea?

Mens rea is not applicable to deaths caused through felony actions. Felony homicide laws, which I believe are pretty universal in the States, stipulate that if a person dies as a direct result of somebody engaging in a felony then that death has by statute already fulfilled both the action and mental components.

If you are fleeing a cop, also a felony just about everywhere and in almost every situation and somebody dies, they whap you with felony murder.

Edit: to expand. You and a partner break into an empty house, unarmed. Somebody sees you and calls the police. The officer gets really excited about his lights and sirens being on and dies of a heart attack. Even if you have no idea any of this happened you are still subject to felony murder.

Edit Edit: Guh, ok. I forget if felony murder is considered not to have mens rhea(a la strict liability) or if it just stipulates that the mens rhea required for the original felony is sufficient to also count as premeditation or whatever the standard is for murder in the particular jurisdiction.

 

[MobBoss]

Once again, from the video he really didn't seem to be intent on killing anybody. According to the police, he apparently never even exceeded the speed limit. And "ramming" the police car was quite possibly the officer trying to spin him out. There is no evidence that this actually occurred. The original story claimed that the officer struck another car.

Can a car going the speed limit kill you if it hits you?

Next.

 

[Truthy]

It didnt look like his intent was to kill the policeman. Intention is relevant or else we should be charging everyone in a demolition derby.
Edit: Regardless if mens rea is not applicable during felony actions, he shouldn't be charged because his mind was innocent towards the death of the officer.