Is It Murder If A Cop Is Killed While Chasing A Traffic Violator?

[Formaldehyde]

People use their vehicles as weapons all the time without being accused of attempted murder. It is really no different than claiming that most serious cases of battery are attempted murder. It is pretty obvious when someone is trying to actually kill you with a car. In this particular case there was no damage reported about his car other than 3 flat tires, which he drove all the way to St Petersburg after apparently driving to Tampa.

 

[MobBoss]

Since such crimes have specific criteria and elements to be met by law, the crime comitted either meets those elements....or it doesnt. And its going to up to a jury's opinion of the facts to determine that or not.

My personal opinion, if someone rams a car with the intention of running it into a tree or other similar obstacle, and crashing into that carries more than a passing possibility of death, then an attempted murder charge isnt beyond the pale.

 

[nonconformist]

My personal opinion, if someone rams a car with the intention of running it into a tree or other similar obstacle, and crashing into that carries more than a passing possibility of death, then an attempted murder charge isnt beyond the pale.

Far be it for me to agree with Mobby, especially on a matte rof legal liability but he's spot on.

If a "reasonable person" could forsee that ramming something with a car could cause death, then it's attempted murder.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Attempted murder means an attempt to take life. You have to prove he was trying to kill the cop, not merely incapacitate his vehicle so as to be able to make an escape.

So no, I don't think that ramming another car is attempted murder, be it a cop car or otherwise, unless the above can be proven.

 

[JollyRoger]

The fact that the driver of the so-called rammed vehicle suffered only minor injuries would undercut the claim that any ramming here was attempted-murder worthy. But I agree that it would be a factual issue for the jury if a prosecutor wants to risk the overcharging on one count hacking off the jury enough to essentially blow up the entire case ala Casey Anthony style.

 

[MobBoss]

The fact that the driver of the so-called rammed vehicle suffered only minor injuries would undercut the claim that any ramming here was attempted-murder worthy. But I agree that it would be a factual issue for the jury if a prosecutor wants to risk the overcharging on one count hacking off the jury enough to essentially blow up the entire case ala Casey Anthony style.

Does every attempted murder result in grevious injury?

 

[MobBoss]

Attempted murder means an attempt to take life. You have to prove he was trying to kill the cop, not merely incapacitate his vehicle so as to be able to make an escape.

So no, I don't think that ramming another car is attempted murder, be it a cop car or otherwise, unless the above can be proven.

The point that makes it attempted murder is ramming the car into a static obstacle that could cause the death of the rammed cars occupants.

If your logic applied, cars rammed that went off a cliff wouldnt be murder or attempted murder......even though most people would consider that to certainly be attempted murder....even if the car occupant got lucky and only suffered some minor scratches at the bottom of that cliff....

 

[nonconformist]

Attempted murder means an attempt to take life. You have to prove he was trying to kill the cop, not merely incapacitate his vehicle so as to be able to make an escape.

So no, I don't think that ramming another car is attempted murder, be it a cop car or otherwise, unless the above can be proven.

No it doesn't; intent is not always explicit, so mens rea can quite easily be proven without an actual desire to cause death.

 

[JollyRoger]

Does every attempted murder result in grevious injury?

Does every collision of vehicles constitute attempted murder?

 

[MobBoss]

Does every collision of vehicles constitute attempted murder?

Couldnt answer my question? Ah well.

But to answer yours, of course not. The vast majority are just simple accidents. However, the case we are talking about it wasnt an accident.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

The point that makes it attempted murder is ramming the car into a static obstacle that could cause the death of the rammed cars occupants.

If your logic applied, cars rammed that went off a cliff wouldnt be murder or attempted murder......even though most people would consider that to certainly be attempted murder....even if the car occupant got lucky and only suffered some minor scratches at the bottom of that cliff....

I said nothing about the result of the incident, I spoke merely of the motivation. Just because a certain action might result in death doesn't in itself indict the actor of attempted murder. Attempted is the relevant word, because it implies intent. If he performed the action and did not intend to kill the person but wound up doing so anyway, then it's not attempted murder, it's voluntary manslaughter. You have to prove intent for it to be considered an attempt on the person's life.

 

[JollyRoger]

Couldnt answer my question? Ah well.

But to answer yours, of course not. The vast majority are just simple accidents. However, the case we are talking about it wasnt an accident.

My answer to your question was in the post you originally quoted. Lack of serious injury undercuts whether a collision is attempted murder. As I acknowledged, it would still be up to the jury, but you can be damned sure a competent defense attorney will use this fact to undercut a claim of attempted murder. Ramming off the side of a cliff or aiming a gun but Sarah Palining the shot would more obviously fall into attempted murder, even if there was no injury, but if you are dealing with the collision of vehicles, the fact that the passenger got out of it with minor injuries would be evidence that the intention of the collision was other than to kill and that a reasonable person causing the collision did so in a minor enough matter that death would not be an expected result and thus an attempted murder charge might not fly.

Would you charge Josh Hamilton for the murder of the fan that went over the railing at the Rangers game last night? Certainly, Josh intended to toss the ball in the man's direction and it is reasonable to think that someone trying to catch the ball was at risk for going over the railing and ending up dead as a result.

 

[MobBoss]

I said nothing about the result of the incident, I spoke merely of the motivation. Just because a certain action might result in death doesn't in itself indict the actor of attempted murder. Attempted is the relevant word, because it implies intent. If he performed the action and did not intend to kill the person but wound up doing so anyway, then it's not attempted murder, it's voluntary manslaughter. You have to prove intent for it to be considered an attempt on the person's life.

As to motivation: i'm chasing you in a car. You could ram me anytime you want, and yet you wait for the precise moment to ram me so that I run into the side of a building.

Is your intent to simply discourage me from chasing you? If so, you could have rammed me at any time possibly spinning me out. So, whats your motivation by waiting for the precise moment to run me into a building? Its certainly gone beyond just mere discouragement in chasing you.

As to voluntary manslaughter...that charge requires the perpetrator to be emotionally or mentally disturbed. For example, if someone comes home and found their spouse in bed with someone else and then killed them, that would be voluntary manslaughter. I dont think that applies in this particular case.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

As to motivation: i'm chasing you in a car. You could ram me anytime you want, and yet you wait for the precise moment to ram me so that I run into the side of a building.

Is your intent to simply discourage me from chasing you? If so, you could have rammed me at any time possibly spinning me out. So, whats your motivation by waiting for the precise moment to run me into a building? Its certainly gone beyond just mere discouragement in chasing you.

Waiting for the opportune moment? Ramming you for the sake of it on the road might not disable your car. But shoving it into a building or wrapping it around a pole probably will. Enough to get away, at least.

As to voluntary manslaughter...that charge requires the perpetrator to be emotionally or mentally disturbed. For example, if someone comes home and found their spouse in bed with someone else and then killed them, that would be voluntary manslaughter. I dont think that applies in this particular case.

Oh I see. I suppose it would be second-degree murder if he died then.

 

[nonconformist]

I said nothing about the result of the incident, I spoke merely of the motivation. Just because a certain action might result in death doesn't in itself indict the actor of attempted murder. Attempted is the relevant word, because it implies intent. If he performed the action and did not intend to kill the person but wound up doing so anyway, then it's not attempted murder, it's voluntary manslaughter. You have to prove intent for it to be considered an attempt on the person's life.

Incorrect. If you're on the other side of a plate glass window, and I pull out a pistol, shoot you through the glass, and my defence is "I wanted to shoot the glass, I had no intent to shoot Cheezy", you'd still get charged with murder.

 

[Farm Boy]

No it doesn't; intent is not always explicit, so mens rea can quite easily be proven without an actual desire to cause death.

This is spot on.

If you can prove intent to ram the car, and a reasonable person could forsee that action as leading to death or grevious injury as a possibility you have murder.

At the very best for the defense you might be able to argue that the driver had absolutely no clue that he was even going to hit the other car(haha!). Even then he had chosen to drive his car in such a reckless manner to qualify this as any number of felonies, Reckless Endangerment, Manslaughter, etc etc.

 

[Berzerker]

But the issue that I think is far more germane is that is it murder if a police officer dies while chasing you for traffic violations?

this was maybe 20 years ago, but in SoCal they charged a motorist with murder because cops died in a helicopter crash pursuing him. I dont know if a jury nailed the guy with murder though...

 

[naterator]

this was maybe 20 years ago, but in SoCal they charged a motorist with murder because cops died in a helicopter crash pursuing him. I dont know if a jury nailed the guy with murder though...

Convicted. Overturned on appeal. Went on to be a boss in a local gang.
Relevant: (from the appeal)

Ironically, the court noted, Acosta could have been found guilty of murder if someone on the ground had been killed. Acosta told police after his arrest that he knew that those chasing him on the ground were in danger "to the bone."

So in CA, the answer is yes, it is murder when a (non-airborne) cop is killed chasing a traffic violator.

 

[Elrohir]

Is it attempted murder to intentionally strike a police car?

Um, yes, because you're engaging in violent and illegal behavior that could kill someone?

Now, if the cop turns on his sirens, does a quick turn, and runs off the road and dies, then that's not murder or attempted murder, because there's no way you could have foreseen that. (It's arguable that you could have if you engage in a long chase, though.) But deliberately running a cop off the road with your car? Absolutely, attempted murder and assault and battery.

I said nothing about the result of the incident, I spoke merely of the motivation. Just because a certain action might result in death doesn't in itself indict the actor of attempted murder. Attempted is the relevant word, because it implies intent. If he performed the action and did not intend to kill the person but wound up doing so anyway, then it's not attempted murder, it's voluntary manslaughter. You have to prove intent for it to be considered an attempt on the person's life.

So if I shoot at you with a gun, intending to hit you in the shoulder and disable you so that I can take your wallet, and I accidentally hit your heart and you die -- that's involuntary manslaughter, not murder? And if you survive, that's assault, but not attempted murder, right?

 

[Formaldehyde]

Um, yes, because you're engaging in violent and illegal behavior that could kill someone?

So it is attempted murder to hit someone because he could very well fall, strike his head, and die from it as many people have done in the past?