Does a heroic death make a hero?
- Thread starter Timsup2nothin
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danjuno
Cole Phelps, Badge 1247
@OP, Are you talking about Steve Owen?
Timsup2nothin
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Yeah. Researched? Or do you have some sort of local ties that put you up on the situation?
danjuno
Cole Phelps, Badge 1247
Google search. Never set foot in Cali TBH. Every article praises him without fail. You are pretty much the only source I've found tying him to abuse.
Aleksey_aka_al
Smiley
The OP reminds me of that new indie game called This Is the Police.
Broken_Erika
Play with me.
Where i live, conduct like that would get a police officer fired, possibly even thrown in jail.
Timsup2nothin
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Well, we did just recently manage to get the feds to throw the sheriff and his under sheriff in charge of operations in jail, along with a double handful of deputies. There is hope that the replacement sheriff will come through on reforming the department, but I am wary. A lot of the problems in the LASD stem from it being the number one refuge when reforms in the LAPD forced out adherents of "good old fashioned policing." One of the worst problems in the police subculture is that bad cops are almost always given the opportunity to resign with a good recommendation for future employment in a different agency, rather than being fired outright as they deserve.
While I agree that they should be fired outright so others have full knowledge before they're offered the opportunity to work in a similar position, there is the question of pensions. Should they be allowed to get them if they are fired for being bad cops?
While I would think it would be justice to deny them the pension, there would have to be a level of certainty of guilt and damage before I would deny a public servant their pension. Sometimes I might think it's best to allow them to keep it just so it would be easier to fire them and get them off the force. I'm a little torn on this one.
While I would think it would be justice to deny them the pension, there would have to be a level of certainty of guilt and damage before I would deny a public servant their pension. Sometimes I might think it's best to allow them to keep it just so it would be easier to fire them and get them off the force. I'm a little torn on this one.
Timsup2nothin
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At least locally if they are in any danger of being fired and they have the time in they just retire, which protects their pension. While I don't really like it I do see benefit in getting rid of a bad cop who is probably in an influential position more rapidly when they leave "voluntarily." However, I think there should be a retroactive loss if they are subsequently convicted, which is currently not the case. Undersheriff Tanaka, known shot caller of the 'Vikings,' a brutal gang made up of LASD deputies, is serving five years in federal prison...and collecting thousands of dollars a month from the county because he retired as soon as the investigation started closing in on him. The underlings that are in prison for following his orders (who also ratted him out) are doing more time and didn't have the opportunity to retire so it does seem wildly unfair.
I thought there was a ruling or something that okayed forfeiture of funds raised during commission of crime e.g. drug money? Couldn't it be possible to seize the pension with that justification?
Timsup2nothin
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It is worth considering, but it would be a huge challenge to push through. I suspect you would very quickly find yourself having to argue that the miscreant's entire career included nothing but criminal activity. The only end around I can think to explore off the top of my head would be if you could make the case that their intent in signing on in the first place was criminal...like if the guy was raised in a crime family that specifically developed one son to be an "inside man" to provide cover for their operations.
Erm, excuse me if you have already covered this (i've skipped the whole meme-sideshow), but isn't a big factor what's in the presumptive hero's heart in the act?
Like, the guy in your hypothetical seems heroish enough, not just to you but generally, no matter his shortcomings.
On the other hand Ms. Giffords would have to settle for the status of having done appreciable service and being a victim.
Similarly the cop Tim was refering to presumably had every expectation to succeed and remain unharmed. Again: That's service, that's his job. The risk got to him, that may be worthy of some respect but it's not necessarily heroism.
Similarly, i don't think the "greater good" GEFM alluded to in post #19 matters all that much, or more generally, whether the act of heroism is effective.
It's the thought that counts.
So, i suppose the working definition of heroism, in my view anyway, would be "to knowingly and willingly accept very likely severe harm or death in an effort to help others".
I'm not sure. This brings heroism rather close to martyrdom. But on the other hand, how herioc would it be for someone of superhuman competence to save people left and right, casually, without breaking a sweat?
By itself, being shot by a criminal doesn't make your death "heroic" anyway. Ser Barristan's death was heroic, while that nameless unsullied killed by the prostitute didn't die a heroic death, despite both being killed by members of the same group.
This brings up something I heard on the CNN this morning in their "Good Stuff" segment (where they point out random acts of kindness and/or heroism)... So this poor kid has his bike stolen when he is at the grocery store, and a local officer, touched by the kids sad story, buy him a new one. Pretty straightforward act of kindness/generosity, right?
So then one of the anchors starts gushing over it and says something along the lines of (paraphrasing) "Awww, this is just another example showing kindness and generosity of cops and how they protect and serve the community."... So I immediately thought... Wait, what? This is one guy who also happens to be a cop, doing one act of kindness/generosity that has nothing to do with his profession. So why do all cops get the great-guy credit, when at the same time when one cop shoots a handcuffed suspect or shoots some guy in the back for running from a broken taillight traffic-stop, the defense is always... "You can't blame all cops for what one bad apple did"... WTH?
Which got me thinking about another related issue but I will post that in another thread cause its off-topic for this one.
What if the cop who bought that kid a new bicycle had shot handcuffed suspects at other times?
Maybe it is personal atonement.
Timsup2nothin
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The f'ing cop probably knew who stole the bike and wanted to quash the investigation. It was probably his own kid.
I have no problem with the cops getting a little press when they do something nice. IT's only fair considering how much bad press they get when they do something wrong. And if it encourages other cops to do something nice too, win-win.
Lexicus
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This premise is shaky. I disagree that the cops get a lot of bad press when they do something wrong, expecially in a historical sense , or even in a per capita sense. Most police misconduct gets no press whatsoever.
A more accurate way of stating it would be to say that... Very recently, due to the increasing prevalence of sophisticated cell-phone cameras and closed circuit video, police officers are getting caught more often doing the bad things that they always did, but used to get away with, and as a result the instances of police receiving press coverage for these wrongful acts they commit is higher than it had been in years past.
