[RD] Is NATO a threat to Russia? If so, how?

The whole idea of NATO is to be a potential threat to anyone who thinks about initiating hostile actions against any of its member states.
Indeed, and when some of those member states go rogue and destroy the nation of Iraq, the others end up being bodyguards hovering just out of sight.

I think the real question is who actually thinks it’s somehow not in the interests of some western agents to attack Russia? He caveats it “as long as they don’t start wars” because I guess the state of political knowledge among western people in 2024 is suddenly pretending to be grossly naive about realpolitik and the very flexible way in which both the concepts of “hostilities” and “war” have been stretched in order to make some people money. I mean whether he thinks he can calculate the true aggregate western interest, any ten guys with a lot of power who can identify some wealth in Russia that they want to own can gain enough power and influence to make that war happen. And then the media will be talking about something completely different like the need to do this war to liberate the oppressed peoples of Siberia. There’s a Siberian genocide going on supposedly. Etc. etc.
 
There's a genocide against Russian ethnic minorities, so let liberate them by bombing the hell out of them.

We'll gain some nice land and resources in the process, but it's not about that. Honest.

Oh, and it's not a war, it's a military operation.

Oh yeah, one last thing ... it's a defensive operation. We're defending against NATO Nazis, see?
 
Indeed, and when some of those member states go rogue and destroy the nation of Iraq, the others end up being bodyguards hovering just out of sight.

The majority of US allies and NATO member states opposed the US invasion of Iraq. Categorically and openly, certainly not 'out of sight'.
 
Indeed, and when some of those member states go rogue and destroy the nation of Iraq, the others end up being bodyguards hovering just out of sight.
If the US had needed them for that, they could have had leverage to stop the US in 2003.

But the US don't need them like that.
 
Not all that much in fact, that's a bit of a canard...


Obviously we don't send troops to the Americas, what would they do there ?
Turns out there is a bit more to that than might be thought. The answer seems to be: To train.

Just found this:
 
What Macron has been doing is make things a little less predictable. Which is a good idea.

No, Macron is entirely predictable, and by that we all know he won't actually act apon his words. You said it yourself he's just there to give a false impression of the unknown without giving the unknown (which by the way would be my "radical" proposition as you so put it)

The rest of what you said makes no sense, because if he ain't gonna do it stop threatening to do it. Otherwise it just becomes an exercise in little boy cried wolf without making the shadows (you know the unknown) come true.
 
It's a good idea, but a little late to be taken seriously. If it were some another leader, Russians might take it more seriously. However, Macron has already lost the reputation of standing up.
 
Honestly I think Macron is acting in line with the French strategy overall. Remember, this is the only country in the world that has developed an atomic weapon whose purpose is to be a warning shot so that should push come to shove they can only nuke you a little instead of a lot. And if that fails their only other strategic option is to just fire everything including salted cobalt atomic bombs at your cities. NOTHING in between. And this is by design.

So it would not surprise me if he was deliberately playing the card of the unpredictable man with a hand grenade in the room. Maybe he won't pull the pin. But do you feel lucky punk? Well do you? The americans might be sane, sure. They chickened out of Cuba after all. And the British only have enough bombs to flatten Moscow. But the French? Well, again, do you feel lucky?

That would certainly be in line with French capabilities and doctrine.
 
China has been in economic war with the US for quite some time - US president even openly called it a dictatorship, so they don't plan to mend relations. There is also the Taiwan issue.

There are some people who (for their own reasons) say that while Russia shouldn't be antagonized over Ukraine, the US must up to go to war with China for Taiwan.

Imo neither war is winnable.

If China falls (which I think is inevitable) its self inflicted.

No one made them implement the one child policy. No one made them create a real estate bubble. No one made them become more totalitarian under Xi scaring off investments.

That's all self inflicted. As per usual they'll blame the west for their very crappy decisions made.
 
If China falls (which I think is inevitable) its self inflicted.

No one made them implement the one child policy. No one made them create a real estate bubble. No one made them become more totalitarian under Xi scaring off investments.

That's all self inflicted. As per usual they'll blame the west for their very crappy decisions made.

You know populations can rebound with the liberal allowance of time? It's not like everyone in China has stopped reproducing.

Also China has a much larger population to burn through, giving them plenty of time for more of a gender balance to emerge.
 
Indeed, and when some of those member states go rogue and destroy the nation of Iraq, the others end up being bodyguards hovering just out of sight.
wrong, some openly opposed it, siding with Russia.
 
You know populations can rebound with the liberal allowance of time? It's not like everyone in China has stopped reproducing.

Also China has a much larger population to burn through, giving them plenty of time for more of a gender balance to emerge.

Birthrate hasn't picked up much since they abolished it.

Combine with current economic problems.

Sure they can theoretically recover in 2 generations short term they're realy screwed.

Even if they doubled the birth rate the current generations woukd gave to support thise kids and the lopsided numbers of elderly.

Elderly that have mostly stopped consuming so they can't transition to a service based economy either.

USA and NZ have comparatively healthy population pyramids relative to rest of the OECD.

Russia and Chiba eone of the worst
 
Birthrate hasn't picked up much since they abolished it.

Combine with current economic problems.

Sure they can theoretically recover in 2 generations short term they're realy screwed.

Even if they doubled the birth rate the current generations woukd gave to support thise kids and the lopsided numbers of elderly.

Elderly that have mostly stopped consuming so they can't transition to a service based economy either.

USA and NZ have comparatively healthy population pyramids relative to rest of the OECD.

Russia and Chiba eone of the worst

And the Western world's birthrate isn't also shrinking in the short term? Again who has more population to lose and still have more left over? That's right, China.
 
With some confusion I imagine, considering that the Russian Tzar supported the North.

Not gonna comment on all the whataboutism; it's not relevant nor interesting imo. I have a rather simple philosophy; people should be judged by their actions.
LOL. The whataboutism defense, followed by no facts, no arguments, no sense of history or geography.

So judge the actions of those who interfered in Russian politics when all this started. :P
From those action onwards the two sides have been in an ideological war, sometimes hot, sometimes Cold.
Judge the actions of those who very carefully placed the bases around the periphery of Russia (and China). :P
 
wrong, some openly opposed it, siding with Russia.
Would it be a good idea for any country to rely on a good cop/bad cop routine? That's even assuming there was a good cop too, and bypassing the fact that the US is the power in Nato, not those others.
If a commune was next to my house, I wouldn't be particularly happy that only a few of its members have been known murderers.
 
My standpoint is a likely biased, one that does not see how NATO presents a credible threat to Russia in the military sense—no one I know of would advocate an invasion of Russia, not only from the threat of nuclear weapons, but just: what is the point? I don’t see it in our Western interests to destroy a Russia that is not actively threatening (as in, actually starting the wars they fear will be started)

They did. They no longer do (except in terms of war going nuclear, always very unlikely). Which was the whole reason why this war is happening...

I don't think even the russians expected the level of military strategic idiocy (send irreplaceable stocks to be destroyed in the battlegound of choice of the adversary) demonstrated by the "collective west". Or they might not have been as worried back in 2021, just sat back and let the "west" continue to sink itself slowly due to internal mismanagement and contradictions
As it was, the process was greatly hastened. Now NATO does't scare anyone. Can they even pull another Libya on Niger? I don't think so. But that effective disarmment won't mean that the russian government will be running towards another negotiation. Because 1, they're probably very pissed now, and 2, they will want enforceable garantees that NATO stays disamed or far away or both.
 
Would it be a good idea for any country to rely on a good cop/bad cop routine? That's even assuming there was a good cop too, and bypassing the fact that the US is the power in Nato, not those others.
If a commune was next to my house, I wouldn't be particularly happy that only a few of its members have been known murderers.
Especially back in the early 1960s(?) when there was a 10 year statute of limitation on murder.
 
They did. They no longer do (except in terms of war going nuclear, always very unlikely). Which was the whole reason why this war is happening...

I don't think even the russians expected the level of military strategic idiocy (send irreplaceable stocks to be destroyed in the battlegound of choice of the adversary) demonstrated by the "collective west". Or they might not have been as worried back in 2021, just sat back and let the "west" continue to sink itself slowly due to internal mismanagement and contradictions
As it was, the process was greatly hastened. Now NATO does't scare anyone. Can they even pull another Libya on Niger? I don't think so. But that effective disarmment won't mean that the russian government will be running towards another negotiation. Because 1, they're probably very pissed now, and 2, they will want enforceable garantees that NATO stays disamed or far away or both.
On the one hand, this may be so, but there's always the chance that placing yourself into a corner (like US did, forcing it on a few unwilling partners too, apart from those willing) may actually lead to more dangerous escalation. I am not convinced this cannot get to a massive war involving many countries. By now regardless of whether it is Russia or the US that backs down, they would be humiliated.
 
On the one hand, this may be so, but there's always the chance that placing yourself into a corner (like US did, forcing it on a few unwilling partners too, apart from those willing) may actually lead to more dangerous escalation. I am not convinced this cannot get to a massive war involving many countries.

I won't think it can escalate much further, for two reasons.

One, no one involved wants to die. Not even those tools of whomever (I stand by my eeralied statements about whose creature ISIS is), they didn't do a suicide wahabbi attack in case people here didn't notice - they planned to escape. So this thing won't escalate to the rightfully dreaded nuclear war. If I'm wrong we're all dead anyway.

Two, NATO doesn't even have the weapons to continue battling Russia alone for long, much less Russia and whomever finally breaks free of the "hegemony" and would normally be clobbered for it, like Libya, Iraq, Serbian, etc were. A coupe years ago I said observe what the arabs do. They went their own way, are triagulating. More than triangulating, the world has truly gone multi-polar already and they have already set themselves up as one pole. The emirates are rivaling London for financial services, Saudi Arabia wants to have more industry and has some very interesting plans (I admit I underestimated them) and Turkey (not arab!) is setting itself up to beat Germany in industry and start influencing politics there (and in France). Now that is a funny historical inversion!

Now, observe what happens in Niger and in Iraq. Both countries are trying to kick out unwanted US military bases planted on their territories. How many fronts can a weakened NATO, running out of ammo, with a visibly inadequate military industry, fight simultaneously? And who (once the poor ukranians run out) is going to volunteer to die for NATO or the EU? There's a reason why the french are so hyperactive lately: they're trying to salvage their francafrique with some backroom deal. But they have nothing to offer. The threat of deploying to Ukraine is not credible. If french soldiers show up there they either shoot at russians or not. If they shoot at russians they get shot back to pieces. If they do not the russians simply march past them and have the police arrest and deport them afterwards.

One is reminded of Bismarck's comment about the UK attacking Germany: I will have the police arrest them. Because the UK had a joke of an army at the time. That's the UK now again. And NATO. France does have some ability, but face it 20000 is pathetic for the scale of a real war. That's two weak devsions, capable perhaps of holding a 18km front in a real war. And with no spares for rotation, who are they joking? The US does have a large capacity but it is busy dealing with crumbling influence everywhere and regards Ukraine as used up, otherwise Nuland wouldn't have been pushed out.

The war can go on for months. There are still NATO weapons to burn. Only roughly 1/3 of its air defense systems were destroyed yet. But the artillery stock is very used up. Industry failed to scale, as was to be expected from the economic structure. Western europe's last remaining big steelmaking plant is about to close, bankrupt due to, you can guess it, high energy costs. How are those sanctions working out?

I can only guess at the intentions of Russia's general staff and political leadership but I think they will welcome disabling more of what remains of NATO's war capacity. That was one of the stated goals: "demilitarization" of the enemy (Ukraine, I have said, is but the battlefield). If western governments continue to be so foolish as to commit more weapons to this war, say introduce their stocks of western planes into Ukraine starting with the old F16 or Rafale, I can actually see Russia slowing operations in order to have more planes transferred there and destroyed by its AA systems before the war ends. Those are seriously expensive and slow to produce weapons. The only serious danger in such a strategy is if some western government is follish enough to introduce long-range missiles that than can carry nuclear warheads. Hence the noise abut the Taurus, which is such a missile. One of those heading towards a strategic target in Russia must be considered a possible nuclear first strike. Sane, intelligent people would know that... apparently Germay has a shortage of sane, intelligent generals. But then what is new?
 
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