Is there any point in keeping NATO around?

[FriendlyFire]

You seem to interpret the word "proposal" as waving saber in front of US embassy, demanding "disband NATO now, or else...". In this case, Poland would indeed be ridiculed.

Proposing is expressing idea. Like the idea of Vaclav Havel, that Europe should have its own security agreement which doesn't rely on any superpower's protection. And that European countries thus should left both Warsaw Pact and NATO. Ridiculous? Maybe, but nobody laughed at that time.

Because no one in a small country between two large countries got squished and non-aggression treaties into two halves.

What do you think happens when smaller weaker countries had traditionally banned together and allied with each other for protection since the beginning of history.

Don't worry, Russia supplies gas to it reliably.

Good for you Russia

Dont complain when everyone is trying to get into the Europe and Nato. While no one wants to join in Russian and its customs union.

 

[Agent327]

The fact that you refer to the membership in Warsaw Pact as "Russian occupation" speaks for itself about relation of Poles to Russia. Unless of course the use of the word was intended as mocking. Look for the definition of the word occupation in dictionary.

It's interesting to note that the only Communist states not occupied by Red Army forces also didn't join the Warsaw Pact. (Observation made without any use of dictionary.)

 

[warpus]

The fact that you refer to the membership in Warsaw Pact as "Russian occupation" speaks for itself about relation of Poles to Russia. Unless of course the use of the word was intended as mocking. Look for the definition of the word occupation in dictionary.

It does? There were Russian troops in the country until the 90s and our government was a puppet government controlled from Moscow. We were not members of the Warsaw pact of our own accord - it was forced upon us by Russia.

That's the difference; We decided to join NATO of our own accord, while the Warsaw pact was forced on us by Russian politicians and troops.

Russian troops were in the country and the government was controlled from Moscow. The term "occupation" is appropriate.

Soviet troops (the Northern Group of Forces) were stationed in Poland from 1945 till 1993. It was only in 1956 that official agreements between communist regime in Poland established by Soviets themselves and Soviet Union recognized the presence of those troops; hence many Polish scholars accept the usage of term 'occupation' for period 1945–1956. Other scholars date the Soviet occupation till 1989. The Polish Government in Exile existed until 1990.

If you're still really so surprised Poland jumped at the first chance it could to join NATO and the EU, then you just don't understand the Polish perspective of all this. We were invaded and occupied, and when we finally had our freedom, we did all we could to distance ourselves from those who imposed BS on us. That's exactly what you guys would have done too, had you been in our shoes.

 

[red_elk]

Russian troops were in the country and the government was controlled from Moscow. The term "occupation" is appropriate.

It only means that you don't know the definition of the word "occupation".
Ironically, you quoted the part of wiki article which states that the presence of Soviet forces in Poland after creation of Warsaw Pact, is not considered as an occupation even by "many Polish scholars".

 

[warpus]

Odd, I don't see the word "not" in the text I quoted.

Either way, this is a silly point to argue about. The word used is irrelevant. What is relevant is what happened - and what happened made Poland want to jump ship to NATO as soon as we could. And so we did, and Moscow will never again rule our country. Which is awesome, that's exactly what we were going for. You can chalk it up to hate or mockery if you so wish, but using those words would completely disregard the real reasons why Poland joined NATO.

 

[red_elk]

Odd, I don't see the word "not" in the text I quoted.

Because it isn't there. Read the statement carefully and pay attention to the dates.

And so we did, and Moscow will never again rule our country. Which is awesome, that's exactly what we were going for. You can chalk it up to hate or mockery if you so wish, but using those words would completely disregard the real reasons why Poland joined NATO.

Moscow did not rule your country, it considered you as ally and subsidized your economy. Up to the point when the level of life in "occupied" territories was better than in many parts of "occupant". Now, it is Germany who subsidizes you instead - occasionally getting in return the same spits in face from professional victims.

 

[warpus]

Look at it from the point of view of Poland - not Moscow - and you might understand why we wanted to join NATO right after the Soviet Union fell apart. If you really want to understand, that is.

 

[Akka]

You realize he actually perfectly understands and is just pretending for the sake of trying to paint Russia in a better light ?
After two years you should be used to it, shouldn't you ?

 

[Agent327]

Moscow did not rule your country, it considered you as ally and subsidized your economy. Up to the point when the level of life in "occupied" territories was better than in many parts of "occupant".

I don't know too many 'allies' who reorganize their 'ally's' borders. I'm sure in your tunnelvision the 'allied' Hungarians asked their 'ally' USSR to help defeat themselves in 1956, just as the Czechoslovakian 'ally' did in 1968.

I think it's clear who is in need of a dictionary here. I fear in your case it will do little good though.

 

[Flying Pig]

The Allies (tm) did exactly that to France after both of the World Wars. Granted, the French were sitting at the table, but they didn't have the decisive say in what their country would look like after either set of negotiations.

 

[warpus]

That's another issue altogether. The main sticking point for me is that Poland was forced into the Warsaw Pact - it wasn't something we wanted to be a part of. NATO was something we wanted to be a part of.

That's the main difference and it's kind of hilarious that there are still people out there who pretend they don't understand why a country would want to run from the Warsaw Pact and want to join something else. "But we were allies!".. .. Yeahhhhh

 

[Akka]

The Allies (tm) did exactly that to France after both of the World Wars. Granted, the French were sitting at the table, but they didn't have the decisive say in what their country would look like after either set of negotiations.

Hu ?
Are you sure you aren't mixing it up with some other wars, like 1815 ? Because, sure, France couldn't get everything it wanted in both WW's post-war discussions, but it certainly wasn't redraw according to the wishes of other countries, and it was arguably the main driving force of the WW1 peace treaty (for all the good that it did...).

 

[red_elk]

Look at it from the point of view of Poland - not Moscow - and you might understand why we wanted to join NATO right after the Soviet Union fell apart. If you really want to understand, that is.

Because of fear and hatred to Russia. This is what I originally said and this is what you are explaining me here, using a little bit different words, like "occupants", "Soviets were equal to Nazis in atrocities", "Moscow will never again rule our country", etc. Don't know why you're doing this, I wasn't asking for your explanations, I perfectly know what you will say as well as you know my position. The only thing which I don't quite understand is what you wanted to celebrate together with the Russians on V-day. I very much doubt you would be a welcomed guest on such celebration.

 

[warpus]

Oh yeah, I forgot, you were there on vacation, and 1945 - 1989 was a big party. A good time was had by all.

 

[red_elk]

You know, I seriously don't understand what kind of positive reaction you expected to get from me. What you are saying here is essentially "your grandfather may be did some good things in his life, but I think he was an occupant and bastard, no better than Nazis, and you should recognize it". It's like trying to "explain" to the Jew who lost his family in WW2, that Hitler was a nice guy - not only simply wrong, but also outrageous for him.

You are not obliged to respect me or my opinion - in fact, every forum contains its share of trolls who are demonstrably disrespectful to the other members. But in your case, it seems that you are honestly unaware what means the word "Nazi" for most of the Russians and how they will treat if someone equates their liberators with their occupants.

And you may also think about why it's considered unadvisable in Canada to discuss politics with strangers and colleagues.

 

[FriendlyFire]

Russians and how they will treat if someone equates their liberators with their occupants.

Not sure if in Russia Liberation actually means Brutal occupation.
Or there is some kind of disconnect that Russian are unable simply unable to understand why Poland would be angry at Russia but also angry at Germany but choose to side with Germany and Nato.

Soviet policy following their 1939 invasion of Poland in World War II was ruthless, and sometimes coordinated with the Nazis (see: Gestapo-NKVD Conferences). Elements of ethnic cleansing included Soviet mass executions of Polish prisoners of war in the Katyn Massacre and at other sites, and the exile of up to 1.5 million Polish citizens, including the intelligentsia, academics and priests, to forced-labor camps in Siberia.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Polish_sentiment

 

[Yeekim]

Moscow did not rule your country, it considered you as ally and subsidized your economy.

So I wonder how and why did all that "fear and hatred" appear?

The only thing which I don't quite understand is what you wanted to celebrate together with the Russians on V-day

You clearly don't. Europe celebrates the end of the war.
Russia celebrates VICTORY!!11!!1!!!!

What you are saying here is essentially "your grandfather may be did some good things in his life, but I think he was an occupant and bastard, no better than Nazis, and you should recognize it".

It's been said that Nazism was a crime against humanity, while Communism was "merely" a crime against an awful lot of humans.
That subtle difference may have been lost on those Poles fighting against both Germany and USSR as they conducted their allied invasion of Poland. I am pretty sure it was lost on the Poles murdered in Katyn (or maybe not, they might have appreciated that they were murdered due to their rank and station, rather than race or ethnicity).

Still, I am willing to respect that subtle difference and say that this "collective grandfather of yours" was, like 20% better than the Nazis.
Happy now?

 

[Kyriakos]

Why would Estonians celebrate the 'end of war', given their side lost?

 

[Yeekim]

Indeed we prefer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Europe_Day, given the consequences of the war, where Estonia declared neutrality, as you well know.

 

[red_elk]

So I wonder how and why did all that "fear and hatred" appear?

That's a whole different topic. I can say that they existed since XIX century for sure, and quite probably since XVII century. This doesn't apply to Baltic States which didn't exist back then. They were artificially created after Russian revolution in German occupied territory, as limitrophe states.

It's been said that Nazism was a crime against humanity, while Communism was "merely" a crime against an awful lot of humans.

Neither of them was a crime by definition. Nazism is a racist, chauvinistic ideology, basing on ideas of racial hierarchy and existing of "subhumans" and "master races". Communism is an ideology proposing to make people equal regardless of their race, gender or ethnicity, as well as eliminate exploitation by removing private property for the means of production. This is just basics, in case you were given different definitions in school. Something like Communism=Nazism or so.

Still, I am willing to respect that subtle difference and say that this "collective grandfather of yours" was, like 20% better than the Nazis.
Happy now?

Not sure how to say it in English - "Не юродствуй". Keep your percents for yourself.

You clearly don't. Europe celebrates the end of the war.
Russia celebrates VICTORY!!11!!1!!!!

Ah, you mean those drunkards who wave flags and scream loudly, but don't know the year when the war started or on whose side USA was fighting. There are some.