Israeli military atrocities against civilians

[Timsup2nothin]

I'm just describing this behaviour, which is especially obvious with you, and more or less noticeable among a handful of others. That's factual observation.

What exactly differentiates your observations and makes them "factual"?

 

[Akka]

No, I have seen you have here on the forum different people disagreeing with you, on different reasonings. And those people do not even agree with each other on many other issues. No one is ganging up on you.

Oh, I do not claim that anyone disagreeing with me has the kind of behaviour Lexicus has. It's specific to a handful of people. I can happily disagree with lots of other people who simply have values or points of view very different from mines.

Perhaps if you stuck more to discussing the ideas, instead of people here, we would not have the threads so derailed this often?

I discuss the ideas and the facts. It's precisely when I encounter said people above who anyway won't even look once at what one is actually saying and simply categorize him instead as a "x-phobe" person and filter everything he says through this, that discussion becomes pointless anyway.

What exactly differentiates your observations and makes them "factual"?

Well, as an exercice you can try to dig the thread and find where I held positions which fit what Lexicus is casting me as (which is, reminder : you don't see the Palestinians as "humans" who have "rights"). If you can in all good faith find something that really implies that, then I might be wrong. If not... then it seems I actually described what is taking place.

 

[luiz]

No, I have seen you have here on the forum different people disagreeing with you, on different reasonings. And those people do not even agree with each other on many other issues. No one is ganging up on you.

Perhaps if you stuck more to discussing the ideas, instead of people here, we would not have the threads so derailed this often?



How can they be citizens of a state that is nor recognized by the state that actually occupies the territory? It just doesn't work, is not working. It is not a mere formality that is missing, it's the actual state. Creating that state was never easy, there are a big number of reasons why it remains a distant possibility.

You know (speaking as necessarily rather ignorant foreign observer) the best way of defusing this situation seems to me to be acknowledging a partial right of return, of a limited number of people to land that was not reused, get those to have a stake on keeping that deal on. Then create the separate state with the remained of the refugees resettled there, subsidize it as needed. If living conditions improve those also have a stake on keeping the peace. That's the best Israel can do to lower the risks of the two-sate solution. But I don't think it's possible, politically, now.
Trying a two-state solution with excess population the the occupied territories, with refugees still clamoring for the right to return to their old land inside Israel, creates an excessively unstable situation within an independent Palestine. The whole right of return thing souled be sorted out before.
The bad portion of this is that those who were displaced and still live as refugees in Lebanon, Syria, and Jordan and pretty much screwed in that scenario. It does not seem just but it seems to be the possible. Politics being the art of the possible and all that...

Israel offered a partial "right of return" for about 150k Palestinians, which would go beyond that with a limited family reunification. They also proposed a fund of 30 billion dollars to compensate those who lost property.

Guess who shot it down.

Anyway, where does "right of return" extend to? Why do people who never set foot in Israel, who were born and lived their whole lives somewhere else, have any kind of claim over Israeli land? Why should Israelis born and raised in a piece of land make way for people who never set foot there?

 

[Broken_Erika]

Anyway, where does "right of return" extend to? Why do people who never set foot in Israel, who were born and lived their whole lives somewhere else, have any kind of claim over Israeli land? Why should Israelis born and raised in a piece of land make way for people who never set foot there?

That's where it gets messy.....

 

[Wastl]

Israel offered a partial "right of return" for about 150k Palestinians, which would go beyond that with a limited family reunification. They also proposed a fund of 30 billion dollars to compensate those who lost property.

Guess who shot it down.

Anyway, where does "right of return" extend to? Why do people who never set foot in Israel, who were born and lived their whole lives somewhere else, have any kind of claim over Israeli land? Why should Israelis born and raised in a piece of land make way for people who never set foot there?

You do realize where the majority of the Israeli population came from, right?
You are basically saying "past claims from ancestors who once lived there ages ago shouldn't matter for those who live now", while Israel itself bases its entire claim on the lands on "this land used to be ours millenia ago!". In other words, you couldn't be more hypocritical when judging the people. Just decades ago, a stream of Jewish settlers who had no connection to Israel whatsoever came into the land to "return" home. Exactly what you want to bar the other side from. And yes, people who never lived somewhere still should be included in these things. You cannot forcefully remove families from where they live, and then deny their offspring who would have been born there if you hadn't driven them away the right to "return" to land you illegally occupy. There is a reason why Jewish property that was taken/stolen by the Nazis gets handed back to descendants of the original owners if a claim is put in and verified, even when the descendants never owned or even saw the property in question themself.

To act as if either side ever acted in good faith and made a sincere offer is ridiculous. There is no moral high-ground for anyone involved. You can't even point at any terror-attacks, because that is kind of the norm when there is one side with a strong military and another that can do nothing to fight back on proper terms. It wasn't any different when groups of right-wing Jewish settlers used terror-attacks against the British authorities before Israel came into existence. Both sides have little interest in giving up even one inch of actual value to them, and both sides are led by radical clowns who shouldn't be anywhere near the power.

 

[luiz]

You do realize where the majority of the Israeli population came from, right?
You are basically saying "past claims from ancestors who once lived there ages ago shouldn't matter for those who live now", while Israel itself bases its entire claim on the lands on "this land used to be ours millenia ago!". In other words, you couldn't be more hypocritical when judging the people. Just decades ago, a stream of Jewish settlers who had no connection to Israel whatsoever came into the land to "return" home. Exactly what you want to bar the other side from. And yes, people who never lived somewhere still should be included in these things. You cannot forcefully remove families from where they live, and then deny their offspring who would have been born there if you hadn't driven them away the right to "return" to land you illegally occupy. There is a reason why Jewish property that was taken/stolen by the Nazis gets handed back to descendants of the original owners if a claim is put in and verified, even when the descendants never owned or even saw the property in question themself.

To act as if either side ever acted in good faith and made a sincere offer is ridiculous. There is no moral high-ground for anyone involved. You can't even point at any terror-attacks, because that is kind of the norm when there is one side with a strong military and another that can do nothing to fight back on proper terms. It wasn't any different when groups of right-wing Jewish settlers used terror-attacks against the British authorities before Israel came into existence. Both sides have little interest in giving up even one inch of actual value to them, and both sides are led by radical clowns who shouldn't be anywhere near the power.

The vast majority of Israelis were born in Israel. They have a far better claim to the land than people who were born elsewhere and never set foot there.

It's shocking that otherwise educated people continue to believe in grotesque myths such as "most Israelis are European immigrants". That's just a big lie.

 

[Verbose]

Israel offered a partial "right of return" for about 150k Palestinians, which would go beyond that with a limited family reunification. They also proposed a fund of 30 billion dollars to compensate those who lost property.

Guess who shot it down.

I.e. you blame the Palestinians for not having sufficiently prepared to be able to take the Israeli offer when it was made, when Israel was and is the main obstacle to the Palestinians having the leeway to sort themselves out sufficiently to BE prepared to take such an offer in the first place.

Really, the problem is that the Palestinians NEED to figuratively get their head above the water for long enough to be able to come to a place where they can accept an offer. For that to happen ISRAEL first needs to let up on the Paletinians sufficiently for it to be possible. It's why this requires a process — not just Israel handing something over with not preparation of the ground for it's acceptance.

Nothing like it had been done prior to that Israeli offer, and predictably it was dead on arrival.

Since then there has been no sign of Israel letting up on the Palestinians remotely enough to allow some other kind of dynamic to develop except confrontation.

And IT IS Israel that controls all this, not the Palestinians.

But you, predictably by now, exclusively blame the Palestinians.

Which works just fine if the objective is simply to accord blame in such a way as to exonerate Israel.

If otoh you might want something to be actually solved here, it's 100% inadequate.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

The vast majority of Israelis were born in Israel. They have a far better claim to the land than people who were born elsewhere and never set foot there.

It's shocking that otherwise educated people continue to believe in grotesque myths such as "most Israelis are European immigrants". That's just a big lie.

Most USians were born in the US also. That doesn't change the raw fact that they were born there as descendants of colonialist usurpers from Europe who committed genocide on the natives. The same holds true for Israel, except they didn't have the benefit of smallpox so they have to use lead...and they got a later start.

 

[luiz]

Most USians were born in the US also. That doesn't change the raw fact that they were born there as descendants of colonialist usurpers from Europe who committed genocide on the natives. The same holds true for Israel, except they didn't have the benefit of smallpox so they have to use lead...and they got a later start.

And curiously nobody suggests kicking out Americans "back" to Europe, China, India, Philippines, etc, but "sending Israelis back to Europe" is always floated around (even though half of them are of Middle Eastern / African origin).

 

[Lexicus]

The same holds true for Israel, except they didn't have the benefit of smallpox so they have to use lead...and they got a later start.

And also unfortunately live in a time where genocide is seen as a pretty big faux pas by....most.

"sending Israelis back to Europe" is always floated around

By whom? I have only seen cartoonish leftist teenagers on Facebook "float" this idea, pretty much nowhere else.

 

[Timsup2nothin]

And curiously nobody suggests kicking out Americans "back" to Europe, China, India, Philippines, etc, but "sending Israelis back to Europe" is always floated around (even though half of them are of Middle Eastern / African origin).

Difference between genocide as fait accompli and genocide in progress. Hardly inexplicable.

 

[luiz]

I.e. you blame the Palestinians for not having sufficiently prepared to be able to take the Israeli offer when it was made, when Israel was and is the main obstacle to the Palestinians having the leeway to sort themselves out sufficiently to BE prepared to take such an offer in the first place.

Really, the problem is that the Palestinians NEED to figuratively get their head above the water for long enough to be able to come to a place where they can accept an offer. For that to happen ISRAEL first needs to let up on the Paletinians sufficiently for it to be possible. It's why this requires a process — not just Israel handing something over with not preparation of the ground for it's acceptance.

Nothing like it had been done prior to that Israeli offer, and predictably it was dead on arrival.

Since then there has been no sign of Israel letting up on the Palestinians remotely enough to allow some other kind of dynamic to develop except confrontation.

And IT IS Israel that controls all this, not the Palestinians.

But you, predictably by now, exclusively blame the Palestinians.

Which works just fine if the objective is simply to accord blame in such a way as to exonerate Israel.

If otoh you might want something to be actually solved here, it's 100% inadequate.

You use a lot of fuzzy terms that don't really mean anything. So I don't know what to answer.

What does it mean concretely for Palestinians to have leeway? What does it concretely mean for them to get their head above tve water enough to be able to accept a peace deal?

Objectively, why could they not take the deal in 2000?

 

[luiz]

By whom? I have only seen cartoonish leftist teenagers on Facebook "float" this idea, pretty much nowhere else.

I quoted one post with exactly this idea in this very thread...

 

[Kyriakos]

There is no hiding the fact that Israel simply cannot work without these massacres; cause it fears it will lose jewish majority. It is very sad, cause this makes the planet even more stupid and inhumane than it had to be.

The US really must stop being the long-arm of Israel; that is, in essence, the route of all this. If the US stops vetoing stuff at UN, sanctions would happen. Not that this is the only thing that is problematic with the US; i mean it supports other callous murdering states; Israel just has a different type of callousness and murderous activity; i am not saying it is "worse" than other ones, but supposedly it is a civilized state, and a democracy, so it cannot be a pariah executioner as well. Israel shouldn't aspire to be - once again - the semitic version of Turkey.
I am also tired of the "antisemitism!" line when people speak against so many being gunned down. It is beyond ridiculous.

 

[uppi]

There is a reason why Jewish property that was taken/stolen by the Nazis gets handed back to descendants of the original owners if a claim is put in and verified, even when the descendants never owned or even saw the property in question themself.

The reason is mostly that the Nazis lost the war. German property that was taken during/after the war doesn't get returned.

 

[Broken_Erika]

There is no hiding the fact that Israel simply cannot work without these massacres; cause it fears it will lose jewish majority. It is very sad, cause this makes the planet even more stupid and inhumane than it had to be.

The US really must stop being the long-arm of Israel; that is, in essence, the route of all this. If the US stops vetoing stuff at UN, sanctions would happen. Not that this is the only thing that is problematic with the US; i mean it supports other callous murdering states; Israel just has a different type of callousness and murderous activity; i am not saying it is "worse" than other ones, but supposedly it is a civilized state, and a democracy, so it cannot be a pariah executioner as well. Israel shouldn't aspire to be - once again - the semitic version of Turkey.
I am also tired of the "antisemitism!" line when people speak against so many being gunned down. It is beyond ridiculous.

Pfffft! that post is nothing but Anti-Semitic Holocaust Denial and actively calling for the destruction of Israel and glorifying terrorism!*
*This Retort is written by and approved by AIPAC and the Republican Party. #OnlyIsraeliLivesMatter

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Why should Israelis born and raised in a piece of land make way for people who never set foot there?

I wonder, do you have the same sentiment towards Palestinians who were born and raised on a piece of land and were kicked out by Israelis who never set foot there, whenever Israel is extending it's settlements?

 

[Lexicus]

I wonder, do you have the same sentiment towards Palestinians who were born and raised on a piece of land and were kicked out by Israelis who never set foot there, whenever Israel is extending it's settlements?

No, those settlements are n e c e s s a r y f o r s e c u r i t y

 

[red_elk]

Israel can get away with many things, because of their lobby in US. Maybe Russia should take measures to develop its influence in US state apparatus too...
Oh, wait.

 

[luiz]

I wonder, do you have the same sentiment towards Palestinians who were born and raised on a piece of land and were kicked out by Israelis who never set foot there, whenever Israel is extending it's settlements?

First, I don't support the expansion of settlements.

Second, I guess the last time Israel actually destroyed Palestinians homes to make way for settlements was in the 1960's (Muslims s continued to kick Jews out for their homes quite a bit after). While later settlements were built in land that according to the Oslo accords should be palestinian (when there is a Palestine), that doesn't mean that Palestinian houses were destroyed to make way for them, just that Israel built stuff in some empty land that they shouldn't. If you think Israel goes about kicking Palestinians out of their houses to build settlements, I'm afraid you're reading some very questionable newspapers.

Third, I do believe a final peace deal will have to involve return or compensation for Palestinians that actually were kicked out. But not for their grand children. Which is what Israel offered in 2000.