1. We have added a Gift Upgrades feature that allows you to gift an account upgrade to another member, just in time for the holiday season. You can see the gift option when going to the Account Upgrades screen, or on any user profile screen.
    Dismiss Notice

Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

Discussion in 'Off-Topic' started by civver_764, Aug 20, 2010.

?

Your thoughts on the conflict.

  1. The Palestinian territories should be fully part of Israel.

    18.4%
  2. Palestine should have some autonomy but subject to embargos and military action if Israel sees fit.

    9.2%
  3. Israel can't use military force against Palestine w/o a formal declaration of war.

    2.0%
  4. In addition to the above, Israel also has no right to sanction embargos and such on Palestine.

    4.1%
  5. Palestine should be it's own state with the same powers as Israel(1967 borders).

    54.1%
  6. Palestine gets a state, Israel gets territories.

    6.1%
  7. Palestine should control Israel and the territories entirely.

    6.1%
  1. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Messages:
    27,947
    Location:
    Brno -> Czech rep. >>European Union
    Which is exactly why it should be up to them to take care of them.

    As it seems now, the Palestinians want:

    • 100% of their 1967 territory
    • full Israeli withdrawal
    • full sovereignty
    • full access to Israel's market
    • freedom of travel from/to Israel
    • right of return for all "refugees" (~80% of whom were born outside Israel)
    • East Jerusalem as their capital
    • no Jewish settlers inside their 1967 borders

    In exchange for... a promise by an unelected bunch of ex-terrorists made on behalf of people who don't recognize their authority that there will be no attacks against Israel in the future.

    Uhm...

    ... I wonder what they're smoking, because I want some of that - must be very good stuff.
     
  2. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    9,891
    I'm fine with 1967 borders, I don't understand why everyone squabbles so much about Eastern Jerusalem. Personally, I think that both sides are in the wrong for creating such a hulabaloo about it. I don't mind some Jews bwing deported away, provided they are given acceptable compensation back home.

    If Israel annexes the whole thingy and grants citizenship rights to everyone there, that'd be OK too, though yeah, now it's as probable as pigs flying. I don't think that Innonimatu's description of the situation is 100% correct, but it's nearer to the truth of the situation then many would like...

    The 1947 variant is pretty loony, though. And I have no problems with Hamas rotting in hell.
     
  3. Gangor

    Gangor King

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2002
    Messages:
    825
    Location:
    Berks, UK
    How about this:

    *A single democratic country with full sufferage for Jews and Muslims.
    *A constitution which amongst other things bans the county from maintaining a military
    *Sovereignty and security to be guaranteed by UN (ie a permanent military presence)
    *Independent judiciary appointed by the UN with the ability to strike down laws which contravene the constitution.
     
  4. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Messages:
    27,947
    Location:
    Brno -> Czech rep. >>European Union
    Well, over 40% of East Jerusalem's inhabitants are Jews. Furthermore, it's surrounded by large suburbs which are mostly Jewish. Also, it has been annexed by Israel so it's officially a part of its territory, unlike the rest of the West Bank.

    There are currently about 500,000 "settlers" in East Jerusalem+West Bank. Evacuating them all would be politically suicidal. Though Israel could give up some smaller settlements, it's highly unlikely it will abandon the major settlements. These will have to be annexed to Israel. Israelis offered compensations, Palies have so far refused to hear about it.

    Here's how the mess looks like on map:

    Spoiler :


    ---

     
  5. Lone Wolf

    Lone Wolf Deity

    Joined:
    Dec 4, 2006
    Messages:
    9,891
    Sufferage indeed :lol:

    Oh, and the UN governing a country would make a fine TV comedy.

    Of course, it also means that about 60% are still Arabs :mischief:

    If Israel offered citizenship to all Arabs there, then I haven't got much problems with it in that regard. Did it, though?
     
  6. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Messages:
    27,947
    Location:
    Brno -> Czech rep. >>European Union
    No, actually. Muslims do have a majority, but only a narrow one - 53%. There are also Christians.

    Of course, the number of Jews is steadily growing (which is why the Israelis are building new homes in the suburbs), so the percentage may be different today.

    In any case, dividing the city would be crazy - you'd basically have to carve out the eastern half of the city centre and then somehow connect it with the rest of Palestinian territories.

    Wiki says:

    Following the 1967 war, Israel conducted a census in East Jerusalem and granted permanent Israeli residency to those Arab Jerusalemites present at the time of the census. Those not present lost the right to reside in Jerusalem. Jerusalem Palestinians were permitted to apply for Israeli citizenship, provided they met the requirements for naturalization—such as swearing allegiance to Israel and renouncing all other citizenships—which most of them refused to do. At the end of 2005, 93% of the Arab population of East Jerusalem had permanent residency and 5% had Israeli citizenship.

    So they basically refused the offer of citizenship.
     
  7. YonatanBlum

    YonatanBlum Warlord

    Joined:
    Dec 12, 2007
    Messages:
    206
    Location:
    Canada
    This is hilarious. You think ANY Israeli at all would accept anything like this? Not to mention any Palestinian? The UN is incompetent and out of touch with reality... And I believe that the idea of a single "democratic" state has already been refuted. The reality is, once the Arabs have a majority in such an imaginary state, there will be no real democracy at all... Just look at current Palestinian "democracy."

    As for equating a one-state solution with the South African solution... Even if the situations were similar, which in truth they are not, I would NOT wish for Israel to become something akin to modern South Africa. It has nothing to do with races, and much more to do with prosperity... The South African position is not at all an envious one.
     
  8. BurnEmDown

    BurnEmDown Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,718
    Winner makes some good points so I would like to change my view and add that for the two-state split there will be a condition where if the Palestinian state attacks Israel without a "casus belli" Israel won't be criticized by the UN and others for attacking back (like what happened in the 2008-9 Gaza war).
     
  9. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Justice guaranteed

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2005
    Messages:
    21,872
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Melbourne
    They do distinguish between Jews and Israel, at least officially. There are anti-Semetic factions within Hamas, and their propaganda often uses Jews, Isreal and Zionism interchangably. To my knowledge, though, they haven't gone as far as to suggest deporting all Jews from Palestine.

    And, a true Palestinian nationalist should not support it either, since Jews have been living in Palestine since forever.

    Not in all of the "Palestinian territories", it's not.

    :yup:

    :yup:

    Yeah, because no country has ever had violent civil conflicts in their history.

    Now you're just being silly.

    Knight: How do we sort out the good Palestinians from the bad Palestinians?
    Bishop: Expel them all. Let God sort them out.

    The imaginary Palestinian state won't ever attack Israel on the account of general military superiority and nuclear weapons.

    Most likely it'd be something similar to the Lebanon War where militant groups like Hamas uses Palestinian territories to launch cross-border raids into Israel.
     
  10. Ajidica

    Ajidica High Quality Person

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2006
    Messages:
    19,746
    Just for the records of others, the historical line is: "Kill them all, God will save his own."

    I could see a one state solution working if Palestine was given greater autonomy. I couldn't see a two state working as we get another round of Balkanization.
     
  11. SchoolzSoKewl

    SchoolzSoKewl Yeah!

    Joined:
    Sep 11, 2008
    Messages:
    168
    Location:
    USA
    So why do you think moving millions of Palestinians is a more feasible solution than moving 500,000 settlers? And why do you think the neighboring Arab states would let the Palestinians into their countries?
    Are the Palestinians that are Israeli citizens included in this forced migration?
     
  12. Winner

    Winner Diverse in Unity

    Joined:
    Sep 24, 2004
    Messages:
    27,947
    Location:
    Brno -> Czech rep. >>European Union
    How's that relevant? Usually, the civil war erupts after a country gets independent. The Palestinians really set the bar high - they managed a civil war even before that. Lovely.

    No, just observant. Unless an Arab country happens to have large reserves of oil beneath the sand, it remains backwards, undemocratic, poor, militaristic and often religiously fundamentalist. Wait, in fact it applies even for many of those who do have oil. Must be something about the culture, then.

    How many members of a group must meet the criteria until you can safely generalize? 100%? I am content with 80-90%.


    ----

    There is one picture I like to post in every discussion like this one:



    Puts the whole situation in perspective.

    Now to answer your question: Palestinians have one of the highest fertility rates in the world - on par with sub-Saharan countries, and way above most Arabs states in the region, not to mention Israel. This is partly a result of their national ethos of "outbreeding the Jews" (I am not making this up, google it). Their population is set to double in the next 30 years. There is no way, I repeat no way, the region of Palestine (Israel+Palestinian territories) can feed such a high population. Already the water availability is sharply dropping due to the global warming. Fighting for water has been a part of the Middle East conflict for decades and it's only going to get worse if there are more people.

    Even if Israelies pulled out of Palestinian territories and somehow found room for the 500 thousand settlers in the already over-populated Israel-proper, the new Palestinian state would just continue exponentially increasing its population, until it would become unable to feed it. As the number of people would grow, it would become steadily poorer and poorer, because the economy wouldn't be able to keep up with the population.

    Eventually, the new Palestinian state would collapse and millions of impoverished Palestinians would try to get to Israel and other countries to find bare essentials for survival. It would probably result in another war, this time with full complement of ethnic cleansing, genocide, famine and whatnot.

    For this reason, it would have been better to simply resettle the Palestinians in other Arab states back in 1967. Unfortunately Israel foolishly chose to allow the population to stay and multiply, so it now faces a much bigger problem.

    The most humane and lasting solution to the conflict is to expel the Palestinians and let the other Arabs take care of them. Eventually they would have to. Israel would get nice defensible borders and enough natural resources to survive in the long term.


    Moderator Action: Advocating ethnic cleansing is hateful and racist and therefore against the terms of service of this forum.
    Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

    You mean the Israeli Arabs? That's an open question. If they finally recognize Israel and start being loyal, then no. If they continue to collude with the enemies of Israel, they should be stripped of citizenship and expelled too.

    (And before someone says that population transfer doesn't solve anything: actually, it does. It may not be the nicest thing, but sometimes it ends chronic conflicts.)
     
  13. Cu Chulainn

    Cu Chulainn The Unoriginal

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2004
    Messages:
    1,377
    ... in Trail of Tears II: Electric Boogaloo.
     
  14. BurnEmDown

    BurnEmDown Emperor

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    1,718
    Winner, I am interesting in your thoughts about Israel's alleged war crimes during the '06 Lebanon war and the recent Gaza war. I have been discussing these things with people of the.. let's say, "other side of the fence", and I'm quite interested what you might think about these things.

    Also if you have the time, the blockade, the recent flotilla incident, etc.
     
  15. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Justice guaranteed

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2005
    Messages:
    21,872
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Melbourne
    I thought it's quite common in countries where there are many ideologically-opposed factions fighting for independence.

    Or, you know, like your typical "developing countries".

    If it's true that all Muslims are the same and Palestinians are just like every other Muslims who have no ties of their own to the land of Israel then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

    Yes, keep pretending it's 1945.
     
  16. Tani Coyote

    Tani Coyote Praise Huehuecoyotl

    Joined:
    May 28, 2007
    Messages:
    15,038
    Gender:
    Male
    One-state ideally since if those two can live in harmony, anybody else can. Cosmopolite thought will enjoy a resurgence!

    Two-state may be the most practical, but also has a dilemma: forced population transfers and all the jollies that come with those. Indeed; a new war would probably just surface from the ashes of the old. Since in the end, both sides are greedy and want the whole pie. Whatever happened to sharing?

    In terms of a one-state, they'd probably need to make it so in the Legislature, Palestinians and Israelis both had equal say regardless of population. This could be unicameral or more than one house, but if you want the big guy and little guy to live together, they're gonna wanna be equals. So, this is next to impossible, since, again, no one wants to share.

    Then there's two Stars for Peace. As a shameless expansionist, I support this. We must tame the Holy Land. :evil: ...Plus it annoys the heck out of fundies who want Israel around simply to bring the apocalypse about, and that's just too much fun to resist. :mischief:

    ---

    Basically: Just let 'em fight it out. Israel can hold its own; we have no need to tie ourselves to them apart from them being a launch base. Besides, they crap on us all the time I hear.

    Translation: severe buddy-buddy ties. At the very least, it'd improve pro-American sentiment everywhere if we didn't give Israel a bias; we may protect their independence, but we'll protect the Arabs' just as much.
     
  17. civ2

    civ2 Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2004
    Messages:
    1,650
    I somehow happen to quote this pretty often recently... :crazyeye:
    The real answer to this nonsensic stupidity.
    If the Israeli government stands firm on this - nobody would ever object. :goodjob:
    Otherwise - it's an endless nonsense. :mad:
    And I'm not joking.

    Old story? I'd say - READ THE ABOVE! :mad:


    This is NOT a joke. :mad:


    Also NOT a joke - just remember 9/11. :mad:

    AS CLEAR AS IT CAN BE:
    Our heritage.
    True defense.
    Real security.
    Over the years.
    Lebanon 80s.
    Camp David.

    ואומר כי-דרש דמים אותם זכר
    לא-שכח צעקת ענוים
    ואומר ידין בגוים מלא גויות
    מחץ ראש על-ארץ רבה
    מנחל בדרך ישתה על-כן יךים ראש
     
  18. Tee Kay

    Tee Kay Justice guaranteed

    Joined:
    Aug 21, 2005
    Messages:
    21,872
    Gender:
    Male
    Location:
    Melbourne
    The One-State Solution is not as unachievable as it may seem.

    http://www.jpost.com/MiddleEast/Article.aspx?id=171559

    http://english.aljazeera.net/focus/2010/07/201071913463759520.html

     
  19. Masada

    Masada Koi-san!

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2005
    Messages:
    12,511
    Location:
    Osaka
    Anything to stop the Rapture!
     
  20. civ2

    civ2 Emperor

    Joined:
    Nov 17, 2004
    Messages:
    1,650
    In the shorter form:
    When Pals stop TARGETING civilians - there will be what and whom to talk about.
    Otherwise - BURN IN HELL. :mad:
     

Share This Page