Israeli-Palestinian Conflict

[civ2]

useless
Are you pretending to be stupid, or you actually are?
I'm clearly talking about Israeli government - mostly Jewish.

"Peaceful Palestinians".
More victims.

 

[useless]

No need to be offensive, i was merely using the Israeli's logic.

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

Truepeace.org is anything but it's namesake, and is not a legitimate website, by the way.

If you want to simply state casualty numbers, then this link demonstrates Palestinian casualties have been much higher over the years. Not to mention uncounted casualties from Israeli mines.

 

[civ2]

useless
Please take some time and read my last post's links.
I really doubt you can call THAT not specific civilian targeting...
Also, Pals fire rockets from schools etc on purpose - to FORCE Israel to shoot them there.
They're not just using human shields in personal fights - they use public buildings in the same way as well.
I'd really suggest that Israel just make an ultimatum "either all known terrorists are put to jail - or we take the site over and deal with it our way".
But it will hardly ever happen, cause we must "fight fair" - while the murderers can do what they want.

 

[useless]

Israel is totally free of any heinious or similar crimes!

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

But it will hardly ever happen, cause we must "fight fair" - while the murderers can do what they want.

Isn't "fighting fair" a "positive?" (Assuming any positives can be attributed to wars.) Why would anyone want to use terrorist tactics? What high ground would you then have?

Also, Israel hasn't exactly "fought fair" in the first place.

 

[nonconformist]

The IDF has never "fought fair". Their complete disrespect for UN Peacekeeping forces in the Lebanon, as well as their ethnic cleansing record there is testament.

 

[Verbose]

useless
Please take some time and read my last post's links.
I really doubt you can call THAT not specific civilian targeting...
Also, Pals fire rockets from schools etc on purpose - to FORCE Israel to shoot them there.
They're not just using human shields in personal fights - they use public buildings in the same way as well.
I'd really suggest that Israel just make an ultimatum "either all known terrorists are put to jail - or we take the site over and deal with it our way".
But it will hardly ever happen, cause we must "fight fair" - while the murderers can do what they want.

I would say it's because the people actively baiting the Israelis actively want it to reoccupy. Which is an excellent reason why Israel won't.

 

[civ2]

GEFM
No, my point is NOT in the numbers - but rather in the situations the victims were killed.

Oct 19, 2000 - Rabbi Binyamin Herling, 64, of Kedumim, was killed when Fatah members and Palestinian security forces opened fire on a group of Israeli men, women, and children on a trip at Mount Ebal near Nablus.
Oct 28, 2000 - The body of Marik Gavrilov, 25, of Bnei Aysh was found inside his burned-out car, between the village of Bitunia and Ramallah.
Nov 2, 2000 - Ayelet Shahar Levy, 28, and Hanan Levy, 33, were killed in a car bomb explosion near the Mahane Yehuda market in Jerusalem. 10 people were injured in the blast. The Islamic Jihad claimed responsibility for the attack.
Nov 8, 2000 - Noa Dahan, 25, of Moshav Mivtahim in the south, was shot to death while driving to her job at the Rafah border crossing in Gaza.
Nov 13, 2000 - Sarah Leisha, 42, of Neveh Tzuf was killed by gunfire from a passing car while travelling near Ofra, north of Ramallah.
Nov 13, 2000 - Gabi Zaghouri, 36, of Netivot was killed by gunfire directed at the truck he was driving near the Kissufim junction in the southern part of the Gaza Strip.
Nov 20, 2000 - Miriam Amitai, 35, and Gavriel Biton, 34, both of Kfar Darom, were killed when a roadside bomb exploded alongside a bus carrying children from Kfar Darom to school in Gush Katif. Nine others, including 5 children, were injured.
Nov 21, 2000 - Itamar Yefet, 18, of Netzer Hazani died from a gunshot wound to the head by Palestinian sniper fire at the Gush Katif junction.
Nov 22, 2000 - Shoshana Reis, 21, of Hadera, and Meir Bahrame, 35, of Givat Olga, were killed, and 60 wounded when a powerful car bomb was denotated alongside a passing bus on Hadera's main street, when the area was packed with shoppers and people driving home from work. 60 were wounded in the blast.
Dec 8, 2000 - Rina Didovsky, 39, a Beit Hagai school teacher on her way to work, and Eliyahu Ben-Ami, 41, of Otniel, the driver of the van, were killed when a car full of gunmen opened fire on the van near Kiryat Arba.
Dec 21, 2000 - Eliahu Cohen, 29, of Modi'in was shot and killed tonight by Palestinian terrorists waiting in ambush on the road between Givat Ze'ev and Beit Horon.
Dec 31, 2000 - Binyamin Zeev Kahane, the son of the late right-wing leader Meir Kahane, and his wife, Talia, were killed when Palestinian snipers opened fire while they were driving on the Ramallah bypass road. Five of their children, aged two months to 10 years, were injured.

That's JUST 2000...
(EDIT: It's just the last QUARTER of 2000... )
ONLY civilians and DEFINITELY by PERSONAL targeting...
Whilst civilian Palestinians usually just get caught in crossfire - or simply used as personal shields.
I did say that civil Pals suffer too - but because of their OWN "neigbours".

 

[Ajidica]

civ2, rather than give us links, explain your arguments to us.
Palestine has commited alot of atrocities, but so has Israel. Neither side is innocent but Israel gets more grief (rightfuly so) as they are a 1st world western democracy. For every Israeli civilian killed by a suicide bomb or snipers, I'm pretty sure at least one Palestinian civilian gets killed by an Israeli artillery retaliation.

Israel isn't helping either by continuing to go into the West Bank and Gaza and build settlements forcing Palestinians out of their homes. Until Israel decides to withdraw out of the West Bank and Gaza, they will always have problems.

Easy way to at least mitigate the issue:
STOP BUILDING ALL THE NEW SETTLEMENTS IN PALESTINIAN LAND FORCING THEM OUT OF THEIR HOMES!!!!!!!

When people feel threatened they will fight back out of desperation. If they stop feeling threatened the desperation fighting will nearly go away. Until you can accept Israel played a large part in creating this mess, this discussion will go nowhere.

 

[civ2]

Adjidica
No, I'd rather want you to show me a single example of an Israeli soldier "hunting" on Palestinian civilians.
I doubt you'll be able - cause it never happened.
There's a huge difference between unwanted casualities during a battle - and a terrorist "hunt" for civilians.
Oh, and why didn't those civilians leave after they saw the rockets being fired from nearby???
Maybe they were FORCED to stay, never thought of it???

 

[GoodEnoughForMe]

Maybe Israel should stop invading Palestinian land?

 

[Gangor]

Firstly, thanks Lone Wolf for pointing out that typo

This is hilarious. You think ANY Israeli at all would accept anything like this? Not to mention any Palestinian?

Isn't that the problem with most of the suggestions at the moment; the reason for the failure of peace talks thus far? At least they'd both dislike it equally - I think that's as much as we can hope for.

The UN is incompetent and out of touch with reality...

Agreed. What I meant really was "a comparitively neutral and disinterested party". The UN seemed the best fit to me, despite it's failings. Who would be better? Japan maybe?

And I believe that the idea of a single "democratic" state has already been refuted. The reality is, once the Arabs have a majority in such an imaginary state, there will be no real democracy at all... Just look at current Palestinian "democracy."

Well, yes. Well Hitler was elected in Germany too, y'know. For similar reasons, as well. The conflict causes the Palestinians to look to more radical leaders to solve their problems, as the Great Depression did to the Germans. To imply that all Palestinians want to do is to destroy the Israelis is disingenuous, if not downright racist.

 

[sourboy]

The Israeli state was created in the aftermath of WWII on Palestinian soil. The Jews need to leave. /problem

Yeah, yeah... won't ever happen. The logical thing is to either 1) butt-out and let them figure it out, or 2) create 2 states.

 

[Ajidica]

Adjidica
No, I'd rather want you to show me a single example of an Israeli soldier "hunting" on Palestinian civilians.

Invasion of Gaza, three years ago.
Retaliatory strikes against heavily populated areas.

I doubt you'll be able - cause it never happened.

Israelis killing civilians who got caught in a crossfire? Clearly, it has never happened before.

There's a huge difference between unwanted casualities during a battle - and a terrorist "hunt" for civilians.

If you were fighting a war and you were outclassed in every area, how would you fight? During the Israeli War of Independance they were just fine using ambushes.

Oh, and why didn't those civilians leave after they saw the rockets being fired from nearby???

In Gaza? Perhaps they are living in abject poverty as all aid shipments are either non-existant due to the blockade, forcibly redirected to Hamas, or Israel isn't helping matters. I read an article in National Geographic a couple months ago on how Israel is redirecting water supplies and using more than their share. They use it to fill pools while Gaza needs it to get crops. Is it any wonder Palestinians hate Israel?

Maybe they were FORCED to stay, never thought of it???

They wouldn't be forced to stay anywhere if they had more land. Well, the land they originaly had before Israel made settlements.
WHEN ISRAEL STOPS BUILDING SETTLEMENTS IN GAZA AND THE WEST BANK A PEACE AGREEMENT MIGHT BE REACHED.

I would like to point out that I am not opposed to Israels existance. They just need to learn that they have to start acting responibly and can't depend on their special friendship with the US. (Which only really started because we wanted to oppose the Soviet Union, who actualy were supporting Israel in the UN Partition.)

 

[Joecoolyo]

Peace will be attained for a two State agreement as long as the Israelis

Stop the Continuation of Expanding Settlements Inside WEST BANK and GAZA

And that will magically stop the Hamas and the rest of the troublemakers from bombing Israel? I fail to see your reasoning.

Also, at what this thread's descended into.

 

[Ajidica]

And that will magically stop the Hamas and the rest of the troublemakers from bombing Israel? I fail to see your reasoning.

Also, at what this thread's descended into.

It will at least take away one of their major reasons for fighting. People will fight hard to defend what they see as theirs. If they start seeing their stuff being taken away, they will fight all the harder.

 

[YonatanBlum]

I see that all the crazies have already come out... At least the thread started out good, and may yet be salvaged. Still some sane individuals to reply to.

Isn't that the problem with most of the suggestions at the moment; the reason for the failure of peace talks thus far? At least they'd both dislike it equally - I think that's as much as we can hope for..

Agreed. What I meant really was "a comparitively neutral and disinterested party". The UN seemed the best fit to me, despite it's failings. Who would be better? Japan maybe?

I don't think that any plan that causes agitation to both sides is a smart one; the people are agitated enough as it is. Which is besides the point, because a "neutral party" taking over Israel is far out there in terms of realism; it won't happen without subduing the IDF, not to mention Israel's nuclear armaments. Nope, don't see that happening, ever.

Well, yes. Well Hitler was elected in Germany too, y'know. For similar reasons, as well. The conflict causes the Palestinians to look to more radical leaders to solve their problems, as the Great Depression did to the Germans. To imply that all Palestinians want to do is to destroy the Israelis is disingenuous, if not downright racist.

I did not mean to imply that all Palestinians want to kill all Israelis. But they are -not- a Western people; they do not hold the same values as the West, nor the same values as most Israelis do. No-one can refute that cultures differ. Currently, the majority of Palestinians are not ready to co-exist in close-quarters with their arch-enemies. Only a change in values and outlook will bring true co-existence; a change which can only happen if the Palestinians achieve comparative peace and prosperity, and learn to trust the Israelis. A sudden integration can not bring this about, but perhaps a slow one can. The two-state solution is the only viable starting point for such a transformation, I think.

 

[Ajidica]

I just don't see the two-state solution working. Where are the drawn?

 

[civ2]

Ajidica
You seem to "play the Roman" way too well...
What I meant by my question was - please bring up a similar list to what I posted - with details that would show documented civilian Pals "killed by suicide bombers in a car" or "killed while driving to the school" or "children blown in a bus" etc.
CAN YOU?
THEN we can talk.
Until you do it - there's nothing we can talk about.
Actually, what you say is quite similar to what Baltics say about Hitler and Stalin.
They claim that occupation by Russia (which resulted in massive deportations to Siberia) is EQUAL to the Holocaust (Nazi genocide against Jews).
Which means that they equal DEPORTATION (chance to survive maybe 80%) to EXTERMINATION (chance to survive maybe 0.1%).
Not to mention, that Russians DIDN'T deport people FOR JUST BEING OF A SPECIFIC NATION - it was on a personal basis.

Thug
They don't want peace with Israel - they simply don't want Israel.

To all blind people...
Life and Death.

What it boils down to is something quite simple. Life is sacred and has an inherent and absolute value and there's nothing in the world that could justify the taking of a single innocent life. Nothing. It doesn't matter how angry the murderer is there's absolutely nothing in the world that could justify the taking of an innocent life.
While ours is a culture that values life, theirs is a culture that values and celebrates death. Our two cultures are now at war with each other locked in a life and death struggle. Only one of us will survive.
...
Does anyone doubt that if the terrorists would have the ability to murder 60,000 or 600,000 or 6 million people that they would gladly do so. Today! To them this is the holiest calling, a fulfillment of G-d's will. It is only a matter of time (a very short time) that they will have the means to destroy us, so to pontificate and to philosophize and to indulge in love-fests is a luxury we can ill afford because our very survival and existence is on the line. We are at the eleventh hour and we pray to G-d that it's not too late.
...
This war will only be won when we have the same passion for truth and life as these beasts have for murder and death. We will triumph when we have the same moral clarity to defend G-d's desire for life, as the terrorists are clear about their mission to destroy G-d's gift of life.
Bin Laden has declared war against life itself. The arrogance of the 19 people who took their own lives and thousands of innocent people with them, is simply staggering. According to the Torah, a person is not allowed to mutilate himself, let alone to kill himself. Life is sacred, divine a gift of the Almighty and we neither own nor control our lives. Every fiber of our being and every bone in our body, screams out in protest against the brazen toying with life by the suicide bombers here and in Israel who violently assault the very foundations of existence itself.
...
Let us shamelessly admit that we Jews are extremists when it comes to life. Yes, we are guilty as charged, we are absolutely fanatical about life. We are a holy people because life is holy to us. For 3800 years it has been inculcated into every Jewish child that saving one life is the equivalent of saving the entire world. A Jew must violate 610 out of the 613 Mitzvot in order to save a single life. Every Jewish home, whether right wing or left wing, inculcate into their children a love for life. Israel is the only army in the world that never leaves a wounded soldier behind and every time a life is lost the entire country mourns. Hundreds of Jewish communities around the world have Hatzolah groups who are on call 24 hours a day for any emergency just in order to save lives.
...
Wasn't Menachen Begin's war against the British also of a terrorist nature?
No! Begin's first priority was to save lives, both of his own members, as well as those of his enemies. Begin escaped the Nazis and eventually arrived in Israel in 1942 after losing his whole family to in the Holocaust. In addition to siding with the Arabs during the violent riots of the twenties and thirties in which many Jews were massacred, the British reneged on their promise and closed the borders of Palestine, indirectly causing millions of Jews to perish in the Holocaust. By their actions the British had become a clear and present danger to life, an immoral colonialist power with no real ties to the land. The British today are following the same "noble" path vis a vis Israel!
The Irgun fought against British troops, not civilians, and the tragic incident at the King David Hotel was a terrible accident resulting from the British not heeding the frantic warning of the Irgun that they evacuate.
...
In true Jewish fashion, however, let me respond to this question with another question. What would happen if all the Arab armies took a week's vacation, no a month's vacation, does anyone doubt what would happen. The Arabs would sleep like babies at night. The great "terrorist" Arik Sharon would gladly go back to his famous farm in the Negev to cultivate his cucumbers and tomatoes. Even when Israel could have and had every right to invade Cairo and Damascus during the Yom Kippur war, incredible at it seems, they did not!
Does anyone doubt what would happen if the IDF took a day off, how fast the Arabs, including Egypt and Jordan would overrun Israel?
We are at peace and have been for the past 52 years while the Arabs have been waging a relentless brutal and merciless campaign of terror and aggression against us, so why do we feel guilty for miraculously winning every war? What kind of evil mind could so twist and distort reality to make Jews look like the bad guys and the Arabs like the good guys?
Let us heed the thunderous wake up call that reverberated throughout the world on September 11th. If the bombing of the twin towers doesn't cure us of our illusions and wake us up to reality, what will?
With best wishes for Moshiach now, when truth will reign on earth and goodness will flood the world.

Please read this.
All Israeli "peace seekers" should read this.