It should be "TURKS", not OTTOMANS

Loki cdn said:
Hardly true. While not taking Moscow was disastrous for the Germans it was hardly the turning point on the Eastern Front. Most of that failure can be placed on Hitler for not taking the German economy to a war time footing. If he had, Barbarossa would have launched weeks early with greater numbers and far better resupply.
Ummm. Let's assume this is true, and I don't reject it. What exactly does it have to do with twits who claim that the war was won by the American?

Not withstanding this fact the Russian's needed to produce more war materials at this time due to German superiority in tactics and training. To do so Stalin had to convert almost 100% of the Russian ecomony to producing war materials.
Ummm. OK. What exactly does it have to do with twits who claim that the war was won by the Americans?

The Lend Lease program allowed him to do this and supplied almost all of Russia's aviation fuel

This is utter bullfeathers. Lend-lease did not supply more than a marginal amount of fuel. Furthermore, the Russians won the war on the ground.


There is no direct evidence that the Japanese ever offered to surrender. In fact the Japanese response to the United States demand that the Japanese unconditionally surrender in accordance with the Potsdam agreement was simply "Mokusatsu" which was mistakenly understood to mean "kill it with silence".

Oh agreed. The Japanese never offered to unconditionally surrender. What exactly is your point? Do you think that unconditional surrender is a reasonable demand?

Strike that question. I'm sure you do.

Not true. Lend Lease materials went to Chiang Kai-Shek exclusively.

Nonsense. Stalin and Churchill got far more than him.

Who had strong supporters in the US in the China Lobby included the publishers of Time magazine.

OK. And?

Since the Dear Leader has broken every agreement he has ever had towards non proliferation, I think that is proof it doesn't work.

Oh indeed he broke them all and it is proof that it doesn't work. He has learnt the lesson. People like Saddam Hussein who listen to American lies wind up in prison and their children are murdered. Every other tinpot dictator in the world understands the message too. Either cowtow to the thugs or make sure you have the means to retaliate against them.

How? Gandhi achieved independence for India through civil disobedience and English war exhaustion.
You work it out. A million people died and tens of millions more had their lives destroyed. Perhaps there might have been another alternative?

Palestine is not a country, never was.
It never ceases to amaze me that people make this claim. It's a lie, but even if it wasn't... Palestinians exist and it revolts me to hear people put down their aspirations and steal their homes under such premises.

Dirty bombs don't exist? Grind up fifty pounds of radioactive uranium into a fine dust, put it on a missile and air burst it over say, Europe.
Yeah. And what? The proof that this scenario would have no consequence is that no country in the world has one. Their militaries are smarter than you.
 
Ummm. Let's assume this is true, and I don't reject it. What exactly does it have to do with twits who claim that the war was won by the American?

Nothing. I was merely disproving your assertion that the Russian's won the war before the American's became involved. The truth is not so clear cut. The fact is that the synergy of America's vast industrial capacity, the juggernaut that the Russian Armed forces BECAME, along with the Allied bombing campaign won the war.

This is utter bullfeathers. Lend-lease did not supply more than a marginal amount of fuel. Furthermore, the Russians won the war on the ground.

While it is easy to dispute exact totals about what was delivered to Russia, since the information is derived from Russian manifests, what can not be disputed is that it allowed Stalin to maintain an almost 100% war economy. Without American aid, Russia would have had to keep millions of its population engaged in jobs that maintained their infrastructure instead of throwing them into the meat grinder that was the Eastern Front.
Your statement that the war was won on the ground demostrates that you have little concept of how WW2 was actually fought. In the European theatre all sides developed and used combined arms stategems that involved the coordinated use of armor, mechanized infantry, artilery and close air support assets acting in cohesion. Air superiority or at least equivalency was a neccessary component of maintaining any advance. Without it armored units could easilier be separated from their infantry support and destroyed.

Oh agreed. The Japanese never offered to unconditionally surrender. What exactly is your point? Do you think that unconditional surrender is a reasonable demand?

Strike that question. I'm sure you do.

No the Japanese never offered to surrender before the atomic bomb droppings period. The condition that Hirohito be respected was offered when they made their unconditional surrender. Since all the allies where in agreement that Japan had to be demilitarized, it is extremely unlikely that the military junta would have agreed to any terms the allies considered necessary for a surrender prior to an invasion or the eventual dropping of the bomb.

Nonsense. Stalin and Churchill got far more than him.

I find it amusing that you took my assertion that your statement that General Stillwell gave lend lease materials to Mao was factually inaccurate and impossible, out of context to try and make a point.

Not true. Chinese Lend Lease materials went to Chiang Kai-Shek exclusively.

There happy?

Oh indeed he broke them all and it is proof that it doesn't work. He has learnt the lesson. People like Saddam Hussein who listen to American lies wind up in prison and their children are murdered. Every other tinpot dictator in the world understands the message too. Either cowtow to the thugs or make sure you have the means to retaliate against them.

What? Support for Saddam Hussein happened because he was considered the lesser of two evils when Iran was the international bogey man under Khomeini. He could have easily negotiated a peaceful withdrawl from Kuwait but instead choose to pit a third rate military against the combined might of the western world using WW I tactics. If you have followed any of the events of his trial you would realize that he is being tried for events that occurred after American support was withdrawn from his regime.

You work it out. A million people died and tens of millions more had their lives destroyed. Perhaps there might have been another alternative?

You have still failed to demostrate how this was Gandhi's fault. He was always working towards an unified India through peaceful means. He treated Muslim's and Hindu's as equals since they were all Indians first to him. If extremists decided to tear apart the country after his death how can he be blamed? As for alternative means what would you propose? Elements of the Indian army where in revolt against their British masters after WW2. If Gandhi hadn't created the means and pressure for Britain to leave there likely would have massacre's of the British population in India.

It never ceases to amaze me that people make this claim. It's a lie, but even if it wasn't... Palestinians exist and it revolts me to hear people put down their aspirations and steal their homes under such premises.

Ok show me when an identifiable people lived in an independent country called Palestine. I think that the people that have come to be called the Palestinians have to have a homeland of their own. I simply have little sympathy for them. They are their own worst enemies. They have repeatably turned away from opportunities to trade peace and recognition of Isreal for a homeland. In 1977 the PLO and all Palestinian militants since then adopted an OFFICIAL policy of excepting peace and land whenever offered by Isreal and then resume attacking them as soon as possible. With the stated purpose of destroying the nation of Isreal. This was amply demostrated last year when after the Israeli's withdrew from the Gaza strip, Hamas began a missile launching compaign within days. Furthermore they ensure that the conflict continues through indoctrinating their children to hate Jews from birth. Peter Worthington a journalist for the Toronto Sun chronicled in the '90s while travelling through the middle east how they teach their children math.

If there are 7 Jews in a store and a matyr walks in and kills 4 of them how many are left?

With such an attitude and indoctrination in hatred is it surprising that three generations have fought a futile conflict against a militarily superior enemy who is equally fanatical in the defense of their homeland. They are people without a home. The first step towards a reasonable solution has to come for them. Yet they always resort to violence. "They started it", is small comfort when a Merkava has driven through your home.

Yeah. And what? The proof that this scenario would have no consequence is that no country in the world has one. Their militaries are smarter than you.

No country has one because you don't have to make a dirty bomb. You simply replace the conventional explosives in a missile with radioactive material. A matter of a few hours work. One of the reasons why the west is hesitant to invade North Korea or Iran is that they could not be certain that the ruling forces of each respective country would give a damn about the consequences if they thought they where in danger of being deposed.
 
My points have not been addressed by Abegweit :rolleyes: I've withdrawn from an exhausting full-scale ideological debate, but I'm curious to read counter-arguments to what seem to be common sense. Nevertheless, I think things are starting to become much clearer to me. Anti-establishment is not only fashionable among those punks in the streets ;)

Anyway, thanks to Loki_cdn for offering your views on the ME conflict. They certainly help to put things into perspective, although I must say Israel could do well to tone down some of its policies as well. The important point you raised is how hatred is fuelling the conflict today, rather than genuine plight or national aspirations. I think both sides have plunged deep into a vicious cycle of pretty much pointless violence (since more could be definitely achieved if they would stop commiting violence out of hatred). However, in my opinion, a democratic state is more likely to resort to reason in dealing with matters than a state dominated by ignorance and religious fundamentalism. In the case of the former, there is likely to be a pressure on the government to be responsible and effective (look at the criticism the American government gets, even here). In the case of the latter, it's all too easy to use religion to justify even the most disgusting acts.
 
Abegweit, Ghandi is like the epitomy of an ideal pacifist. I can't believe that someone who fashions himself a pacifist could honestly be arguing that Ghandi's methods were negative or bad. I think that perhaps your mind is in a different reality. A place where idealistic philosophies like pure pacifism and absolute human compassion exist. Maybe if these ideals were attainable or possible, your ideas would work well. Ultimately, in these ideals, I agree with you. However, you have to be realistic when discussing how to implement such ideals.

As to nukes and the rest of the arguments, I can only imagine that you enjoy to flame up a good debate, because as a self-admitted pacifist, one could never advocate the use of Nukes as anything ESPECIALLY a deterent... It's like saying "If everyone on the playground has a rock, then no one will throw it." History has already shown that it is very conceivable for the rock to be thrown.
 
Palestine is not a country, never was.
It never ceases to amaze me that people make this claim. It's a lie, but even if it wasn't...

Palestine was never a country. There's no lie in that. There was a British Mandate of Palestine, comprising territory that was part of the Ottoman Empire before it collapsed. Once the British left (due in large part to frequent Jewish and Muslim/Arabic terrorism), the UN created Jewish and Arabic/Muslim Palestine. But the Arabs/Muslims rejected this agreement (which was an implicit rejection of the country of Palestine) on the promise by Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, and Egypt that the Jews would be "washed into the sea" and the land would be given in full to the Arabs/Muslims. But they failed. The Jews were able to fend off the invasion mere hours after they declared independence and renamed themselves Israel. So the country of Arabic/Muslim Palestine as outlined by the UN was rejected. The country of Arabic/Muslim Palestine promised by Jordan, Syria, Lebanon, Iran, and Egypt was never to be because their invasion failed.

Palestinians exist and it revolts me to hear people put down their aspirations and steal their homes under such premises.

So I assume you have a lot of ire towards Jordan, Syria, and Lebanon--in addition to Israel--which sit on more than half of what was once known as the British Mandate of Palestine? And because Jordan and Lebanon ejected Palestinian insurgents from their territory because they were staging attacks against Israel?

As a Jew, I have an emotional bias towards the existence of Israel, I have to aknowledge that, but I also am repelled by many Israeli policies towards Israeli Arabs/Muslims and Arabs/Muslims in the Palestinian territories. I also think Zionism, which has roots in the STRONG mid-late 1800s anti-Semitism in Europe (France in particular), while understandable in a sense, was just a bad idea.

But it's also my view that both sides are equally guilty. If things had turned out differently and the Arab/Muslim nations had succeeded in "washing the Zionists into the sea," I have no doubt that Jews in the region would be subjected to exactly what the Palestinians are today. That's not meant as an excuse for Israel, just as an illustration of how, in my view, there are two taking part in this tango. To suggest otherwise--that one side is more or less culpable than the other--is to simplify the situation to an extremely unrealistic degree.

And this is now on topic as ALL of this is the result of the vacuum left in the wake of the Ottoman/Turkish Empire ;).
 
Hey. Is everyone over there as level headed as you? You seem to be squared away. I dont know why you bothered with these people...
Some of these fellas you are debating with are a few nuts loose, at least least one of them have no nuts at all.
I had an offer to live where you are..... a long time ago. I turned the job down. It wasnt right at the time. I'll always wish I did.
 
weasel77066 said:
Hey. Is everyone over there as level headed as you?... I had an offer to live where you are..... a long time ago. I turned the job down. It wasnt right at the time. I'll always wish I did.

I live in a region of non-Aligned countries ;)

Expatriate life here is good. The weather can be unbearably hot, though. And right now there's a lot of smoke from forest fires in the neighbouring country.
 
aelf said:
I live in a region of non-Aligned countries ;)

Expatriate life here is good. The weather can be unbearably hot, though. And right now there's a lot of smoke from forest fires in the neighbouring country.


I'm moving to Bangkok at the start of December with work for a few years. I'm really looking forward to it.

As to the big debate here, I am not going to get involved. I know what I think and that is enough.
 
aelf said:
I live in a region of non-Aligned countries ;)

Expatriate life here is good. The weather can be unbearably hot, though. And right now there's a lot of smoke from forest fires in the neighbouring country.
OK, as everone posts off-topic in this thread here goes:

THE COOL THINGS WITH SWEDEN

1) We pay the most taxes in the world per citizen.

2) We have no traditional food, and instead go to Chinese and French resturants, Italian and American pizza huts, and Turkish kebab huts.

3) We open our christmas presents 3-4pm at christmas eve.

And that's pretty much it.
 
shivute said:
I'm moving to Bangkok at the start of December with work for a few years. I'm really looking forward to it.

I should be moving to the UK next year. I'm looking forward to that too. The grass is greener on the other side, huh? :)
 
ShannonCT said:
Why not head the Greeks with Pericles?

He is there, he is in a custom scenario. I wish people would look at all the scenarios featured in the game before asking why they were not included. Sure, they aren't in the "main" game and can't be played in multiplayer, but they are an easy mod project to include them in your own single player game, and that is all that should matter.
 
Swedishguy said:
OK, as everone posts off-topic in this thread here goes:

THE COOL THINGS WITH SWEDEN

1) We pay the most taxes in the world per citizen.

2) We have no traditional food, and instead go to Chinese and French resturants, Italian and American pizza huts, and Turkish kebab huts.

3) We open our christmas presents 3-4pm at christmas eve.

And that's pretty much it.

Don't forget HOCKEY!
 
Hitti-Litti said:
And don't forget IKEA. That's the best thing ever happened to Sweden.


:lol:

Nothing like tragically-hip, cheap furniture that lasts the same amount of time as it takes to finish college.
 
shannon be nice NO flaming.

blitzkrieg1980 the Three Gorges Dam is in China on the Yangze river (Hoover Dam is american)
 
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