It's not Islam, is it?

[NovaKart]

Women are superior in every way?

 

[Archbob]

You always pressing on Mandatory state religious id cards things, let me tell you something, first it is in Indonesia, and if you think it is for discrimination against non muslim for jobs and promotions then really you are horribly horribly wrong. In Indonesia the non muslim doesn't limited to any Job that they want to do, so don't making up all those things, have you live there yourselves? I live there pretty long.

They can choose what ever job they have, they even been put in important official places as the well known high ranking official like Sarwo Edi the father in law of the president of Indonesia today is a christian, the high rank military in the time of Soeharto Beni Murdani is a non muslim, the former minister of Indonesia Joop Ave is a non muslim.

its not only indonesia, Egypt and many other countries have them as well. And yes, there are many positions where you have to be the "right" religion to get into. Why should any country have Religious ID cards in the first place if they really had freedom to believe in whichever religion you want?

There's "idealized religion" and there's how people actually carry it out in the world. The two are very different. Thats like me pretending that all Christians and loving and peaceful and care more about their neighbor than themselves. Your ignoring how muslim countries, especially in the middle east actually treat the non-muslim minority and the death sentence they have for converting away from Islam.

 

[Borachio]

NovaKart, pretty much. That's been my experience.

Now, I'll grant you, under some metrics you might find some male superiority. But it's a bit of a mixed bag. There's things like alcohol tolerance, and farting contests where men come out clearly ahead.

Oh, and of course, average height. Stuff like that, yeah.

 

[NovaKart]

I suppose you've met some very extraordinary women, I've found plenty of women to be lazy and untalented and the same with men. Saying women are superior in every way except drinking and farting is really going nuts with supporting women. Let's be realistic.

 

[Borachio]

Ah, the voice of reason speaks. That's a novel approach.

But, realistically, the position of women, globally, is as second class citizens.

And yes, I have met some extraordinary women. In fact, I can't think which of them are not. (I haven't liked all of them, though)

 

[NovaKart]

Well, men and women have certain advantages and disadvantages in every society. I think in Western societies there are still problems with sexism but it can work both ways. I wouldn't say women are second class citizens, but yeah this is a highly debatable issue and many people are going to see it different ways.

 

[Borachio]

Oh. What are the advantages that women have? I don't see any in the UK. The US may be different. And Turkey different again.

edit: but there's the fact they live longer, and, at the moment (though not for long) retire a bit earlier.

 

[Quackers]

they fooled some men like yourself into believing they are perfect

 

[Borachio]

Nonono. I see women for what they are.

 

[NovaKart]

Women are exempt from military service in almost every country, women get early retirement in many countries, women sometimes benefit from affirmative action and often are favored in divorce and child custody. This is legally speaking.

It's also been much more difficult for men to break away from traditional roles than it has for women. Men are often still expected to adhere to chivalry. People are often more protective of women which can give many advantages. In a situation where two people, a man and a woman are both offered a room, one is more luxurious, who do you think will get that room? Of course it should go to the woman, that's the more polite thing to do right? There are a lot of situations like that. Men are often expected to pay for women too, this has changed in some western countries, but in many it's changing slowly. I could probably think of more examples but that's all that comes to mind now.

 

[Borachio]

Women are exempt from military service in almost every country, women get early retirement in many countries, women sometimes benefit from affirmative action and often are favored in divorce and child custody. This is legally speaking.

Only some of these are, partially, true. A great many women serve in the military in both the UK and US. Early retirement is probably a mixed blessing when you take into account traditionally lower pay - even for the same job. Women, according to all the studies I have ever come across, do far more work in the home, cooking, cleaning, child care - and consequently have much less time to dispose of for themselves. Women very occasionally may benefit from affirmative action - but I've yet to see it. Child custody is a good one. I'll give you that. Usually though they're left holding the baby anyway.

It's also been much more difficult for men to break away from traditional roles than it has for women.

Really? Never seen it myself.

Men are often still expected to adhere to chivalry. People are often more protective of women which can give many advantages. In a situation where two people, a man and a woman are both offered a room, one is more luxurious, who do you think will get that room? Of course it should go to the woman, that's the more polite thing to do right?

This is because of the evolutionary prime value placed on the reproductive age female. See if it ever happens for a female under 14 or over 50. Chivalry is pretty much a non-starter when it comes to studies into domestic violence.

There are a lot of situations like that.

I don't see so many, really, myself.

Men are often expected to pay for women too, this has changed in some western countries, but in many it's changing slowly. I could probably think of more examples but that's all that comes to mind now.

This too is an evolutionary thing. If a man can't show he is able to provide for the material needs of a woman before pregnancy, how will he do so afterwards?

But this is an awful state of affairs. Women are not men's property. Nowhere, not anyhow. But they have been treated as such. The sooner Women everywhere can gain financial independence from Men for the whole of their natural lives the better, as far as I can see.

 

[NovaKart]

I'm not trying to turn this into a contest between men and women, I'm pointing out the advantages and disadvantages that both genders have. There are reasons for why these exist but even if you come up with a reason for them, they still exist and men and women are still affected by them. I'm not arguing that women don't suffer from sexism, I'm saying it's not so one sided.

And for military service, I mentioned exempt. If a woman chooses to serve in the military, it is a choice, for men in many parts of the world it is not. They have to give up a year or so of their life, be subject to abuse and do all of this without pay or for extremely little pay. This is mostly accepted and human rights groups don't usually give it much attention.

With affirmative action, that's something which has been argued many times and probably varies so much that it's difficult to make firm statements about it. It does however exist and normally favors women where it does exist, we can argue about the extent of it and I don't know who's right or wrong.

With retirement age, yes there's a reason why it's different but that doesn't change the fact that it's an advantage women have, regardless of whether or not they have children or how much housework and childcare a man does.

And when we're talking about traditional gender roles, men are more often expected to follow them than women. This is an opinion so if you disagree, I can't say I care enough about the issue to spend several posts following it up. Men are still bound by chivalry and just because some women suffer from domestic violence, and there are laws and organizations that try to stop it, that doesn't cancel out the fact that it's still a big burden for men that they are expected to follow.

And I don't think we're at the level in western societies where people still see women as property and I know as many women who are financially independent as men.

 

[Borachio]

I'm not trying to turn this into a contest between men and women, I'm pointing out the advantages and disadvantages that both genders have. There are reasons for why these exist but even if you come up with a reason for them, they still exist and men and women are still affected by them. I'm not arguing that women don't suffer from sexism, I'm saying it's not so one sided.

I agree there's no use arguing. My position is that I suggest women are overwhelmingly disadvantaged, as a whole, in even the most enlightened of nations. To see this you need only google how many women feature at the head of governments, or a CEO's of large companies. That sort of thing.

And for military service, I mentioned exempt. If a woman chooses to serve in the military, it is a choice, for men in many parts of the world it is not. They have to give up a year or so of their life, be subject to abuse and do all of this without pay or for extremely little pay. This is mostly accepted and human rights groups don't usually give it much attention.

Fine. Military service I'll grant you is and has been overwhelmingly carried out by men. Often against their will. And often just as cannon fodder.

And with early retirement, what about women who don't have children? What about men who take a great role in the housework and childcare? Why is that not recognized?

I don't know. What proportion of women don't have children? I haven't researched it. The poorer the country the lower the proportion, I would hazard a guess. Men's participation in housework is notoriously pathetic. Some, a very very few do take care of their own children.

And when we're talking about traditional gender roles, men are more often expected to follow them than women. This is an opinion so if you disagree, I can't say I care enough about the issue to spend several posts following it up. Men are still bound by chivalry and just because some women suffer from domestic violence, and there are laws and organizations that try to stop it, that doesn't cancel out the fact that it's still a big burden for men that they are expected to follow.

Traditional gender roles for men, where they still exist, have always been the high status, high pay jobs. Oh, apart from the conscripted military that is. I can't think of another exception. And the female gender paid jobs have been what? Nurse, secretary, nanny, primary school teacher, spinster, milkmaid, servant...er...what else? Bit thin on the ground aren't they?

While all the other jobs have been male gender?

And I don't think we're at the level in western societies where people still see women as property and I know as many women who are financially independent as men.

I too know a few women who are financially independent. But their pay has nearly always been lower than that of the equivalent man. Given similar qualifications and work experience.

The woman has always suffered from the perception that she will take time out from a career for child rearing.

I don't mean to disagree with you for the sake of it. It is an interesting subject which deserves careful scrutiny.

 

[Disgustipated]

Going on and on about how great women are isn't going to get you laid more. Sadly, women really do prefer men that treat them like crap, or at least don't put them on a pedestal like the above poster is doing.

Don't put them on a pedestal. They are just human beings. All that shows is you are most likely a virgin, and they won't want to touch you at all.

 

[Disgustipated]

I agree there's no use arguing. My position is that I suggest women are overwhelmingly disadvantaged, as a whole, in even the most enlightened of nations. To see this you need only google how many women feature at the head of governments, or a CEO's of large companies. That sort of thing.

That only shows that women are smarter than men and realize there are more important things in life than money. Quality and life and spending time with your loved ones far outweighs making more money. I'm a guy, and I see this. I'd prefer to spend time with the ones I love rather than work. I only work 40 hours a week, and I'm happy with that.

It seems to me all you care about is money. I learned long ago money cannot buy happiness. Happiness comes from being with the ones you love. Women had discovered this long ago.

 

[Borachio]

Going on and on about how great women are isn't going to get you laid more. Sadly, women really do prefer men that treat them like crap, or at least don't put them on a pedestal like the above poster is doing.

Don't put them on a pedestal. They are just human beings. All that shows is you are most likely a virgin, and they won't want to touch you at all.

You make I laugh.

(I was going to highlight some of your post. But I realized I would have to highlight it all. It's all very funny.)

 

[Disgustipated]

The fact that you find it funny shows you have no clue about what women really want.

Why do you think 50 shades of grey is so popular? It's not like men are forcing women to like this book.

 

[NovaKart]

I agree there's no use arguing. My position is that I suggest women are overwhelmingly disadvantaged, as a whole, in even the most enlightened of nations. To see this you need only google how many women feature at the head of governments, or a CEO's of large companies. That sort of thing.


Fine. Military service I'll grant you is and has been overwhelmingly carried out by men. Often against their will. And often just as cannon fodder.


I don't know. What proportion of women don't have children? I haven't researched it. The poorer the country the lower the proportion, I would hazard a guess. Men's participation in housework is notoriously pathetic. Some, a very very few do take care of their own children.



Traditional gender roles for men, where they still exist, have always been the high status, high pay jobs. Oh, apart from the conscripted military that is. I can't think of another exception. And the female gender paid jobs have been what? Nurse, secretary, nanny, primary school teacher, spinster, milkmaid, servant...er...what else? Bit thin on the ground aren't they?

While all the other jobs have been male gender?


I too know a few women who are financially independent. But their pay has nearly always been lower than that of the equivalent man. Given similar qualifications and work experience.

The woman has always suffered from the perception that she will take time out from a career for child rearing.

I don't mean to disagree with you for the sake of it. It is an interesting subject which deserves careful scrutiny.

I didn't expect you would respond to this before I edited a bit so I explained some things a bit better above.

This is one thing that people often mention, that more men are CEOs, politicians etc. The thing is, the majority of men are not in such high positions. The majority of men do not have such high paying jobs. For the few men at the top, you can say that they have an advantage but for the average man who doesn't benefit from "male status" who is still stuck with the traditional male obligations, the idea that he has such an advantage over women doesn't hold much water.

And with retirement age, I mentioned above that while there may be a reason for a difference, it is still an advantage that women have, regardless of whether or not they have children, or how much housework and childcare that men do. The legislation just upholds the idea that women should do the housework and childcare and if we're going to complain that men are pathetic with housework and childcare, it just goes on self-reporting and anecdotal evidence and is impossible to measure.

 

[Borachio]

Mr Disgustipated, Sir.

Ahhhhhh!. I'm glad you can tell me what I have no clue about. I was laughing at being thought a virgin as much as anything. What a thought! Oh and the idea of getting laid more often! Oh and women prefer men who treat them like crap! Or the thought that I put people on pedestals...

You really have absolutely NO idea what I'm about, have you?


As for 50 shades of grey, I can only speculate, not having read it myself.

I will speculate though! I guess it's something to do with fantasy.

But we're straying into rather odd territory here.

 

[Borachio]

This is one thing that people often mention, that more men are CEOs, politicians etc. The thing is, the majority of men are not in such high positions. The majority of men do not have such high paying jobs. For the few men at the top, you can say that they have an advantage but for the average man who doesn't benefit from "male status" who is still stuck with the traditional male obligations, the idea that he has such an advantage over women doesn't hold much water.

Thing is, though, that this male advantage starts at the top and goes all the way to the bottom. I merely mentioned the top positions because this is the easiest to confirm from country to country.

And with retirement age, I mentioned above that while there may be a reason for a difference, it is still an advantage that women have, regardless of whether or not they have children, or how much housework and childcare that men do. The legislation just upholds the idea that women should do the housework and childcare and if we're going to complain that men are pathetic with housework and childcare, it just goes on self-reporting and anecdotal evidence and is impossible to measure.

Well, not really. In fact not at all.

Just a casual search turns up this sort of thing.

Or this.

Or this.

You know there's just so much of this stuff, I'm surprised you've managed to step round it all.

Anyway, I have to break off now. It is a fascinating subject. I'm sorry I can't answer you adequately.