Jeremy Corbyn and Anti-Semitism (from UK Politics)

[Synobun]

I was actually on Mouthwash's side of this argument pretty recently. Look at a graph of the Jewish population in Europe, and look at a graph of the population of the Palestinian territories. One population was victimized by genocide, one is not. It's rather easy to tell them apart. There is no need to overplay our hand here; the crimes of the Israeli state are quite bad enough without making stuff up.

It's not making stuff up. What do you think will happen if you limit physical space enough for an expanding population?

 

[Mouthwash]

The vast majority of white nationalists believe in a non-discriminatory 'rainbow state' in the area currently occupied by Israel and occupied Palestine?

They don't share that goal, but they're with you about 60% of the way there. Just look at how well they document Israeli oppression!

(Also, I don't think most Israelis want the rest of the world to become Judenrein, so we have some difficulties with Spencer's vision of Zionism as well).

No... no, it really isn't.

Well yeah, it depends on the manner of interaction. Israeli-Arabs dominate medicine, and are significantly represented in universities and high-tech. Everyone knows they aren't knife-wielding fanatics (I remember the mayor of Ashkelon banning Arab workers, and the entire right-wing uniting against him).

I think they call it "forced annexation", not "purging", so that's a good catch.

The Israelis who take the place of the previous Palestinians are called "settlers", if that interested you too.

You'll be relieved to know that the settlements near Palestinian villages and cities haven't expanded in decades then. The ones right next to the Green Line have, those are what they show you on Press TV.

(Nice job referring to Palestinians as vermin, by the way, what with Israel needing to "prevent" their "explosive" growth.)

So most demographers are racist against Chinese or something?

I was actually on Mouthwash's side of this argument pretty recently. Look at a graph of the Jewish population in Europe, and look at a graph of the population of the Palestinian territories. One population was victimized by genocide, one is not. It's rather easy to tell them apart. There is no need to overplay our hand here; the crimes of the Israeli state are quite bad enough without making stuff up.

Inconveniencing some middle-class Arabs who think Jews extract the blood of Gentile children and invented the fire engine to extort money is clearly a crime.

It's not making stuff up. What do you think will happen if you limit physical space enough for an expanding population?

Watch out, Singapore.

 

[Lexicus]

It's not making stuff up. What do you think will happen if you limit physical space enough for an expanding population?

The population becomes more dense? As of now afaik not even Gaza, which I think can be fairly described as a large open-air prison or ghetto, but even with the periodic Israeli military operations there I doubt the excess death rate even comes close to that which prevailed in, say, the Warsaw Ghetto.

I think it is quite possible that the politics in Israel may end up going there. For example polls show a worrying proportion of the Israeli population supports the forced transfer of Arab citizens into the occupied territories which should chill the blood of any right-thinking person. Israel has additionally been deporting African Jewish refugees (which many Holocaust survivors have been livid about). Many people in the Zionist left regard the recent passage of the nation-state bill (the thing supported by Richard Spencer which I mentioned upthread prompting the rather amusing cognitive-dissonance show from Mouthwash) as a historical turning point where it is really no longer 'fringe' or hyperbolic to call Israel an apartheid regime. And one place apartheid regimes can and do go is genocide.

They don't share that goal, but they're with you about 80% of the way there.

Can you explain how?

 

[Synobun]

The population becomes more dense? As of now afaik not even Gaza, which I think can be fairly described as a large open-air prison or ghetto, but even with the periodic Israeli military operations there I doubt the excess death rate even comes close to that which prevailed in, say, the Warsaw Ghetto.

For now, but that is a natural end for a system that gradually limits space for an expanding population. You say it's "quite possible" that this is where Israel will go but I think it's "almost guaranteed" unless someone intervenes or the Israeli people realize they're being not so great.

 

[Traitorfish]

You are an antisemite if you think that Chinese, Polish, or Thai national identities are acceptable but a Jewish one is somehow 'racist.'

Both the Republic of China and People's Republic of China are constitutionally multi-ethnic, so that seems like a slightly awkward analogy.

 

[Lexicus]

For now, but that is a natural end for a system that gradually limits space for an expanding population. You say it's "quite possible" that this is where Israel will go but I think it's "almost guaranteed" unless someone intervenes or the Israeli people realize they're being not so great.

Well, let me just say that I think if this were the intention of the Israeli leadership they'd have gotten a move on already.

Both the Republic of China and People's Republic of China are constitutionally multi-ethnic, so that seems like a slightly awkward analogy.

Also it's kind of awkward but one major reason Poland is more ethnically homogeneous today than it was 100 years ago is the Nazi genocides that took place there...

 

[Synobun]

Well, let me just say that I think if this were the intention of the Israeli leadership they'd have gotten a move on already.

Backing someone into a corner until they violently resist before enacting an overt policy of aggression is more internationally acceptable than skipping straight to the end.

 

[Lexicus]

Backing someone into a corner until they violently resist before enacting an overt policy of aggression is more internationally acceptable than skipping straight to the end.

Eh. That may be true, but by itself it doesn't really prove anything. I agree that a process basically like what you're talking about is going on, in that there is obviously a gradually escalating campaign of violence against the Palestinians. But I don't think there's any kind of multi-generational plot to exterminate the Palestinians, which is what you seem to be implying. I think that on the far right there have always been more or less genocidal elements, and that's pretty clearly been true from the beginning of the Israeli state. What is happening is that those forces are gaining more and more power in the context created by the ongoing occupation and the Palestinians' violent struggle against it.

Another aspect of this that's important to understand is that the Likud Party is essentially an outpost of the Republican Party in Israel and it represents approximately analogous class forces - the Israeli economy is more or less controlled by a handful of billionaire families, a fact that is of course mostly ignored in any discussion of Israel. Netanyahu is at heart a bog-standard kleptocrat but, rather like more-competent "mainstream" version of Trump, he's been playing with more and more fire to maintain popular support for his rule.

 

[luiz]

Backing someone into a corner until they violently resist before enacting an overt policy of aggression is more internationally acceptable than skipping straight to the end.

Wait, you really think Israel is plotting to eventually annihilate the Palestinians in a similar way as Germans did to European Jews?

If you think that, yes, you're an anti-semite.

The number of Muslims in historical Palestine has actually greatly expanded since Israel was created. These Zio-Nazis must be really incompetent at genocide!

 

[Synobun]

Eh. That may be true, but by itself it doesn't really prove anything. I agree that a process basically like what you're talking about is going on, in that there is obviously a gradually escalating campaign of violence against the Palestinians. But I don't think there's any kind of multi-generational plot to exterminate the Palestinians, which is what you seem to be implying. I think that on the far right there have always been more or less genocidal elements, and that's pretty clearly been true from the beginning of the Israeli state. What is happening is that those forces are gaining more and more power in the context created by the ongoing occupation and the Palestinians' violent struggle against it.

Another aspect of this that's important to understand is that the Likud Party is essentially an outpost of the Republican Party in Israel and it represents approximately analogous class forces - the Israeli economy is more or less controlled by a handful of billionaire families, a fact that is of course mostly ignored in any discussion of Israel. Netanyahu is at heart a bog-standard kleptocrat but, rather like more-competent "mainstream" version of Trump, he's been playing with more and more fire to maintain popular support for his rule.

My original post was agreeing with you so I'm not really sure where your disagreement is coming from.

Wait, you really think Israel is plotting to eventually annihilate the Palestinians in a similar way as Germans did to European Jews?

If you think that, yes, you're an anti-semite.

Totally dude, you caught me.

 

[luiz]

One thing I haven't seen in this discussion is any actual statement by Corbyn that could be read as anti-Semitic in general, rather than anti-Israel specifically. The only exception would be that mural, but that seems to have been a genuine mistake.

He really dislikes Israel and is willing to ally with actual anti-Semites who share the same dislike. That is a strike against him. Of the points I listed above:



The only ones that don't directly involve Israel are 1, 6, and 7. I'm willing to dismiss the Duke thing; it's true that real anti-Semites sometimes support whomever is anti-Israel (I've seen support for Palestinians on Stormfront, despite their usual hatred for Arabs). Number 7 is bad, but a lot of them involved extreme anti-Israel statements as well, that didn't touch on Jews in general.

I've never heard of him complaining about Jews in general, outside of Israel. No conspiracy theories he invokes involve a global Jewish conspiracy or anything of that nature. He's certainly never said anything negative about British Jews, and though Jewish newspapers in Britain have denounced him, they didn't present any good reason to think he would support doing anything that would negatively affect the Jewish community in the UK.

I also don't think it follows that moderate opposition to Israel's policies is not anti-Semitic, but strong opposition involving baseless speculation about Israeli covert ops is anti-Semitic. It is true that real anti-Semites promote wild conspiracy theories about both Israel and Jews in general, but what Corbyn said, while baseless, was about Israeli covert ops, which they are known to engage in throughout the region. It's plausible that they would try to intervene in order to help bring back a friendly Mubarak-like regime. Destabilizing the Sinai would obviously cause lots of problems for Israel too, so it's kind of unlikely they'd choose that route, and more to the point, he didn't actually have any evidence that they were actually doing this. So it's wrong, but not totally implausible, and not far-ranging the way real anti-Semitic conspiracy theories are.

Now if he said something about how Israelis are secretly manipulating much of the global economy through agents placed in large banks, that would actually be an anti-Semitic conspiracy theory. The difference, to my mind, is whether it plays into anti-Semitic tropes about global Jewry, especially involving manipulation of world economic or political events.

This topic in general is obviously a political play - most people who use this against him were strong opponents of Corbyn to begin with, and this is the most potent allegation they have to use against him. Obviously, as people said upthread, you could investigate the Tories and find plenty of racist and/or Islamophobic stuff said or tolerated by their members, probably considerably more than anything racist and/or anti-Semitic among Labour.

It's certainly a problem that he tolerates or even allies with anti-Semites when opposing Israel. But the evidence that he is personally an anti-Semite is weak and circumstantial.

I think the evidence he is an anti-semite is much bigger than that Trump is racist, even though the latter is taken as given by pretty much the whole left-wing press and establishment. And I do think there is enough evidence to conclude Trump is racist, just like there is more than enough evidence to conclude Corbyn is anti-semitic.

And it's not true that his anti-semitism, or to put it your way, support of anti-semitic terrorist groups and other anti-semites, is the only or strongest criticism against him.

His moral bankruptcy can just as easily be demonstrated by his continued support of Nicolas Maduro, while he slaughters the opposition and rapes democracy. He denies being an anti-semite, but he does not deny kissing Maduro's butt. And he doesn't support Maduro because it's in his country's interest, or because it would somehow advance some foreign policy goal, which would be reprehensible enough. No, he genuinely likes him and supports him for no interest whatsoever other than genuine admiration.

The fact that he is an idiotic baboon can likewise be demonstrated by his enthusiastic support of Chavez and Maduro's economic policies, which have literally resulted in mass starvation in what was until recently the country with the highest per capita income in South America. This level of absurd economic ignorance and lack of judgment alone disqualifies him from being PM.

So no, even absent his blatant antisemitism Corbyn is still a despicable person and an idiot.

 

[Patine]

Wait, you really think Israel is plotting to eventually annihilate the Palestinians in a similar way as Germans did to European Jews?

If you think that, yes, you're an anti-semite.

The number of Muslims in historical Palestine has actually greatly expanded since Israel was created. These Zio-Nazis must be really incompetent at genocide!

Declaring that certain lines of debate, investigation, opinion, rhetoric, etc. that DO NOT specifically quote well known and well trodden bad stereotypes and myths as "you're anti-Semitic" just to shut them so they don't have to be, and CAN'T be, addressed in a rational and civilized manner, is akin to Stalin saying you're opinion is "counterrevolutionary," and throwing you in the gulag rather than listening to you.

 

[luiz]

Declaring that certain lines of debate, investigation, opinion, rhetoric, etc. that DO NOT specifically quote well known and well trodden bad stereotypes and myths as "you're anti-Semitic" just to shut them so they don't have to be, and CAN'T be, addressed in a rational and civilized manner, is akin to Stalin saying you're opinion is "counterrevolutionary," and throwing you in the gulag rather than listening to you.

I'm not interdicting anything. Synsensa can fully spread his BS theory of an impending palestinian holocaust all he wants. Plenty of people are willing to listen to him and share the same view (e.g., David Duke and Jeremy Corbyn). And I'm free to point out this is absurd, that Palestinians have actually been growing and growing fast, and that there is absolutely zero desire by Israel to wipe them out. And that thinking that Israel is plotting some final solution to them is so absurd that it is indeed entering racist territory.

BTW for someone whining about poor usage of English your posts are a pain in the butt to read. Try shorter sentences.

 

[Synobun]

The claim was that Israel's behaviour matches up with the early stages of the Holocaust, which it does. Doesn't make them Nazis or the Fourth Reich. But it does mean they're utilizing tried-and-true preparatory tactics for genocide, and if you follow that avenue far enough you're kind of left with no other options except seeing it through or dialing it back.

 

[Patine]

I'm not interdicting anything. Synsensa can fully spread his BS theory of an impending palestinian holocaust all he wants. Plenty of people are willing to listen to him and share the same view (e.g., David Duke and Jeremy Corbyn). And I'm free to point out this is absurd, that Palestinians have actually been growing and growing fast, and that there is absolutely zero desire by Israel to wipe them out. And that thinking that Israel is plotting some final solution to them is so absurd that it is indeed entering racist territory.

BTW for someone whining about poor usage of English your posts are a pain in the butt to read. Try shorter sentences.

Zero is an incorrect number. It may a fringe, minority opinion, but there are online interviews and broadcasts by extremist Israeli rabbis and politicians advocating just that. So, fringe and minority - but not zero...

 

[luiz]

The claim was that Israel's behaviour matches up with the early stages of the Holocaust, which it does. Doesn't make them Nazis or the Fourth Reich. But it does mean they're utilizing tried-and-true preparatory tactics for genocide, and if you follow that avenue far enough you're kind of left with no other options except seeing it through or dialing it back.

No, it has nothing to do with early stages of the Holocaust. This is utter BS. Arab Israelis have full rights, there are no Nuremberg Laws, there's no banning them from academia or administration, there's no Kristallnacht. The Israeli press is free and is not flooded with articules about the racial menace posed by Arabs to pure Jewish blood. No Israeli leader is advocating exterminating Arabs by sterilization or whatever.


So no. You're wrong.

 

[Lexicus]

I think the evidence he is an anti-semite is much bigger than that Trump is racist,

Whoah man
@Hygro center-left alright

 

[luiz]

Zero is an incorrect number. It may a fringe, minority opinion, but there are online interviews and broadcasts by extremist Israeli rabbis and politicians advocating just that. So, fringe and minority - but not zero...

Fringe rabbis and assorted crazies do not speak for Israel. Or do crazy extremist people in Africa speak for Africans?

 

[luiz]

Whoah man
@Hygro center-left alright

I'm a proud right-winger, but Trump is a racist and an idiot and I want nothing to do with him. Use the search function, I urged Americans to vote for Hilary.

I am not tribal to defend a scumbag like Trump just because he is on "my side". Too bad the same is not true for fanboys of another scumbag on the opposite side.

 

[Arakhor]

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