[RD] JK Rowling and Explicit Transphobia

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People hate transpeople regardless of their legal status, so don't give me this crap okay and who the hell are you to determine that the status quo for transpeople is in anyway acceptable or morally tenable?

Just another cisdude telling us how we should shut up, sit down and accept our lot in life.

Your opinion isn't valid, your opinion isn't wanted by the transcommunity and your opinion is actively harmful, despite what you may think and claim.

"cisdude", "your opinion isnt valid", your opinion isnt wanted" etc. Ok lol. You are simply horrible person. Who talks like that? Who you think you are? Who elected you as the spokeperson for transpeople?

You sound like a South Park character.

Moderator Action: That will be quite enough. Make your point without resorting to personal attacks. --LM
 
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"cisdude", "your opinion isnt valid", your opinion isnt wanted" etc. Ok lol. You are simply horrible person. Who talks like that? Who you think you are? Who elected you as the spokeperson for transpeople?

We all did, we had a secret meeting, Cloud's the spokesperson. I'm afraid the people have spoken.
 
I was there as neutral observer. I can confirm the contents of the meeting.
 
"cisdude", "your opinion isnt valid", your opinion isnt wanted" etc. Ok lol. You are simply horrible person. Who talks like that? Who you think you are? Who elected you as the spokeperson for transpeople?

You sound like a South Park character.

See, when i want to know what it's like to live as a sexual or ethnic minority or their experiences, I ask a white cisdude

Also I'm a transwoman who has had far morepersonal experience with these matters than @TheMeInTeam could ever hope to have unless they too decide to transition, both physically, emotionally, educationally and being on the recieving end of.

The problem with people like you is that you think you can gleam the totality of someone's experience by merely reading about it, but that doesn't fully encapsulate it and it doesn't allow you to fully understand it either, there is a degree of detachment inherent in learning about, but not experiencing, it.

Unless of course you wish to argue otherwise, @Inhalaattori? I don't know what it's like to be your nationality, so instead of basing my opinions on whatever i can read on the internet or on literature and using that to argue about it, I will instead default to those that live within your country or have come from it and have spent a good number of years living in it.

i default to the African American community, the Asian-American community, the Hispanic American community, the Indigineous American community, the Gay community, the lesbian community, the bi community etc, when i want to talk about their issues because i don't have personal experience with those issues but im not going to be so pig-headed as to speak for them if i don't at least have a basic grasp of what the general or trending consensus is within those communities.

And on the matter of "valid opinions" I don't consider the opinion of a cisdude, be it in the affirmative or negative, to hold the same weight, not even necessarily lesser or greater, as someone who has a lived experience being within the transcommunity, just like i don't consider the opinion of a layperson and a person trained in a specific field that i am looking into to be of equal weight. You probably do this all the time, but for some reason you feel the need to attack me under the guise of insinuating i am a terrible person for pointing out a common sense fact.

I welcome other transpeople, especially transmen and non-binary individuals, to engage in this topic, some of them won't precisely because of the reaction i've gotten and because it's incredibly exhausting to have to defend your right to exist and your right to not be discriminated against both socially and legally.

I do think it's interesting you mentioned South Park, because it's quite appropiate to the topic at hand; transphobic beliefs and rhetoric.
 
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shes-right-you-9wych9.jpg
 
"cisdude", "your opinion isnt valid", your opinion isnt wanted" etc. Ok lol. You are simply horrible person. Who talks like that? Who you think you are? Who elected you as the spokeperson for transpeople?

You sound like a South Park character.

Ad hominem.
 
Transpeople face issues that are exclusively unique to them, to argue that they should be treated, in terms of the law, exactly the same as cispeople ignores that fundamental fact and reality.

What issues are "exclusively unique to transpeople" that merit special legal privileges?

The two quotes you list do not conflict, and if you have been following the discussion to this point you will see why they do not conflict (namely, that I consider the laws in present form to be generally insufficient).

Resentment and hate is something that will be created anyways for any given progress made.

How much resentment is generated depends on the specifics, however.

Mmm. Lies about the Jewish population's control of wealth has also been highly productive anti-semitic propaganda.

True. That'd be somewhere between the two examples you quoted.

Ad hominem.

It's not fun to be on the receiving end of it, which is why it is not supposed to happen in RD threads (they are supposed to be civil).

Not that it seemed to matter the last dozen+ times it's happened here. Why the change of heart now?
 
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What issues are "exclusively unique to transpeople" that merit special legal privileges?

The ability to use toilets of the gender they're transitioning too without legally being prosecuted or harrassed? Or changing rooms? Or Prisons? Or indeed any gender segregated space?

The ability to transition gender legally, without having barriers placed in their way?
 
It's not fun to be on the receiving end of it, which is why it is not supposed to happen in RD threads (they are supposed to be civil).

Not that it seemed to matter the last dozen+ times it's happened here. Why the change of heart now?

Because in the overwhelming majority of cases where you were crying ad hominem you were wrong - people would condemn your rhetoric and then you would shout "ad hominem" at them as if that would make their points go away. But it doesn't.
 
I think that the bath issue may be somewhat (I repeat: somewhat) superfluous. But this is how I mean it:

If the TG person already looks like the gender they are transitioning to, why would anyone try to stop them from using that gender's bath?*
And if they don't already, wouldn't it be wishful thinking to expect the issue to be solved just by law? (bullying would not be lessened by that).

*Of course they may wish to be publicly accepted, that is also by people who actually know they are TG. But, sadly, this isn't realistic at this time. Hopefully will be in the future.
 
The ability to use toilets of the gender they're transitioning too without legally being prosecuted or harrassed? Or changing rooms? Or Prisons? Or indeed any gender segregated space?

The ability to transition gender legally, without having barriers placed in their way?

I don't see why these things need to be (or should be) restricted to anybody though?

Because in the overwhelming majority of cases where you were crying ad hominem you were wrong - people would condemn your rhetoric and then you would shout "ad hominem" at them as if that would make their points go away. But it doesn't.

Ad hominem is any argument that addresses or attacks the person rather than the argument presented. For review: https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ad-hominem

As a result, the following are objectively examples of ad hominem:

If you are more concerned about discussing your hypotheticals over and instead of some peoples actuals

How many posts have you made?

See, it's all a debate with you, it's all statistics and numbers whilst you ignore the real life experiences of transpeople because they don't neatly fit into your compartmentalized view of violence.

have you ever considered the possibility that if you cannot be bothered to look up data and statistics yourself you shouldn’t be debating something

Just sick and tired of listening to people who clearly don't have the interests of minorities in mind tell me how simultainously things aren't that bad and that the real bigotry is being against bigots

I’m not the one casting doubt on testimonials of trans people here, you know. Why should I believe that you have a better handle on the subject than people who have actually lived through it?

That just sounds like a long winded admission that you have no perspective, no opinion, nor anything positive to contribute to the discussion to me.

This is one of the reasons why people are deeply frustrated at your behaviour in the thread and have been reluctant to provide you statistics. Because they know you were going to do this. Because we've all done this song and dance with hundred people who act in the same way as you.

Your opinion isn't valid, your opinion isn't wanted by the transcommunity and your opinion is actively harmful, despite what you may think and claim.

All of these came from *after* there was a request for the thread to return to topic. There is way more of it prior to that. All of these are ad hominem trash, that addresses not arguments I made, but contrived interpretation of my intentions, character, or supposed prejudice. They undermine the respectability of the posts that contain them.

Considering there was a presumably honest attempt to return to topic of JKR and how her posts tie into transphobia, there's been an awful lot of discussing TheMeInTeam, despite repeated attempts to direct conversation to the arguments presented and despite that the above has either nothing or virtually nothing to do with the thread topic.

Then the moment someone calls out another poster, we get a hypocritical "ad hominem" callout :lol:. This is a RD thread, and those are supposed to be taken seriously and adhere to pre-agreed rules. I would prefer that this didn't devolve into an ad-hominem spam joke, but here we are.

Ad hominem does not strengthen arguments. It makes them childish.
 
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TMIT, the elegant and beautiful law you want is only going to happen after a major societal reset. Like, a revolution. Which, you know, I'm down with and all. And yet:

At the exact present it is not reasonable to expect ethnic and gender/sexual minorities to do your revolution for you, especially when you are too lazy to do it for yourself. They have to live in this world and that means adapting the present law.

These adaptations will not meet your aesthetic standards. Deal with it or go away. You are wasting breath and time here insisting that Cloud et al meet standards that you don't seem to ask of mainstream America.
 
If the TG person already looks like the gender they are transitioning to, why would anyone try to stop them from using that gender's bath?*

Because they're bigots.

And if they don't already, wouldn't it be wishful thinking to expect the issue to be solved just by law? (bullying would not be lessened by that).

The problem is that there have been a concerted legislative push by TERFs and religious fundamentalists to criminalise transgender people going to bathrooms of their choosing, forcing them to go the bathroom assigned to them at birth. I'm not joking, there have been laws proposed to put people in jail for this. Its equal measures absurd and horrifying.
 
These adaptations will not meet your aesthetic standards. Deal with it or go away. You are wasting breath and time here insisting that Cloud et al meet standards that you don't seem to ask of mainstream America.

Add this to the ad hominem trash heap.
 
I'd call him an engineer?
 
All of these are ad hominem trash

But they're not though. All (except maybe Cardgame's) of those posts are clearly not "ad hominem trash".

Hokay, I'm just saying

I'm just saying is all.

If you are more concerned about discussing your hypotheticals over and instead of some peoples actuals

then you better be prepared for some blowback.

Says that your dismissal of people's lived experiences and offensive hypothetical arguments are upsetting people and will result in some people getting angry about you. Doesn't mention you or your character a single time, not an ad hominem.

See, it's all a debate with you, it's all statistics and numbers whilst you ignore the real life experiences of transpeople because they don't neatly fit into your compartmentalized view of violence.

Objecting to your argument that statistics and numbers is more important than people's lived experiences. Not an ad homiem.

have you ever considered the possibility that if you cannot be bothered to look up data and statistics yourself you shouldn’t be debating something

Making an argument that a person should not debate something unless they look up data and statistics on the topic. Not an ad homiem.

Just sick and tired of listening to people who clearly don't have the interests of minorities in mind tell me how simultainously things aren't that bad and that the real bigotry is being against bigots.

You have constantly cast doubt on whether violence against trans people is worse than on comparable demographic groups. You have literally said in this thread that ensuring that the government can't arrest people for "stating their beliefs about the general state of reality" is more important to you than ensuring that hate speech is suppressed. Cloud_Strife is clearly expressing her extreme distaste of these arguments and implying that people who support those arguments do not have the interests of minorities in mind. Still not an ad homiem.

I’m not the one casting doubt on testimonials of trans people here, you know. Why should I believe that you have a better handle on the subject than people who have actually lived through it?

Seon is asserting that you are casting doubt on testimonials of trans people here and this then stating that those with actual lived experience of being trans have more of an understanding than persons who do not, which includes you (as far as I am aware you are cis). Not an ad homiem.

That just sounds like a long winded admission that you have no perspective, no opinion, nor anything positive to contribute to the discussion to me.

Seon's basically just saying that your arguments are bad. Still not an ad homiem.

This is one of the reasons why people are deeply frustrated at your behaviour in the thread and have been reluctant to provide you statistics. Because they know you were going to do this. Because we've all done this song and dance with hundred people who act in the same way as you.

I am clearly expressing deep frustration at your argumentative style in the thread and asserting that I made an accurate assumption privately that you would immediately nitpick any data provided to you (which you did) because I have seen similar behaviour in people I have talked to about topics such as these. Not an ad homiem.

Your opinion isn't valid, your opinion isn't wanted by the transcommunity and your opinion is actively harmful, despite what you may think and claim.

Literally does not mention your character a single time, literally just mentions your opinion (which you have stated multiple times in this thread). How on Earth could this be considered an ad homiem?

It is not an ad homiem to mention characteristics of a person that is relevant to the debate. If we were having a debate on the Chinese language it would be totally fair and not an ad homiem to say that I have no experience speaking Chinese therefore I would be unfamiliar with the Chinese language and that would call any of my arguments into doubt. It would be an ad homiem to say that because I am not wearing shoes my opinion is irrelevant. Likewise, it is not an ad homiem to call you out on your lack of lived experiences as a trans person and your lack of willingness to seek out or meaningfully engage with statistics on this issue.

The onus is on you to prove that any of these posts listed are ad homiems.
 
Moderator Action: Thread paused whilst we consider what to do with it. All of you take some time and cool off.
 
Moderator Action: All right. I have gone through the last 20 pages of the thread, and this is a sorry mess. The thread is about the treatment of and protections accorded to trans people (the OP can correct me here if I am wrong, please), and it has really gone off the rails. Despite that, I am going to reopen this thread under the following conditions:

1. That posters discuss the topic and not stray off into tangents.
2. The personal attacks will cease immediately.
3. Arguing simply for the sake of arguing is not permitted. Be respectful and try to see the other person's POV.

An RD thread is more heavily moderated than a usual thread. To that end, this thread will be moderated even more heavily than a standard RD thread from this point on. That means no more bickering.

Now, off you go. Keep it civil.

Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889
 
A few general observations from someone whose job for the last decade has been to actually draft laws, if in entirely unrelated field:

1) If the problem is with enforcement of already existing law, changing the letter of the law is unlikely to actually fix it.
2) Framing is important. Whether trans community is seeking "special privileges" or just "equal rights" seems largely a matter of framing. The latter is definitely a lot easier to sell.
 
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