Seon
Not An Evil Liar
she's canceling people for saying transwomen are women. She's made her opinion on the subject quite clear by now.
[RD] JK Rowling and Explicit Transphobia
- Thread starter Cloud_Strife
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The OP was started by a transperson, and there is at least one other transperson, possibly two, participating in this thread. You don't think that they take this stuff personally? Or is that your equivocation talking here?
Do you have a specific example?
Or are you just positing a hypothetical because you think that trans people can't have problematic views? Cloud herself has stated that they can, time and time again.
Seon
Not An Evil Liar
Female sexists and misogynists also exist you know
Oh yes, this is definitely true.
I remember a number of years ago when I went to Lilith Fair. There was a kerfuffle of sorts because there was a loud cadre of bigoted women who didn't want trans women there. They felt that it was an event for women, by women, and that trans women didn't qualify because they couldn't have a period and were therefore not "true" women.
I can't recall how it was resolved now, but I remember thinking at the time when I saw all of the protest signs, that there was a whole lot of stupid going around.
EDIT: I looked it up and the foolishness carried over from the Michigan Womyn's Music Festival and their non-trans policy.
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Cloud_Strife
Deity
For him it's a topic he can enter, debate and openly ponder the existence of and then walk away whenever he so chooses shrugging his shoulders asking why minorities are responding to him in increasingly hostile ways.
Just like misogyny or racism or homophobia he can disengage from those when he likes, it's a part of his privilege.
Yes, but it is off topic to be discussing him, and it is also a form of trolling to do so. This is an RD thread after all, and we should be discussing the topic and not each other.
Address his points directly, not in 3rd person.
Address his points directly, not in 3rd person.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
Except the claim is this thread as well as most threads, are not personal to the op.
I don't think you really need to read the entirety of my posting history to see that this issue, as timely as it is, is clearly an issue I'm invested in and it's precisely this point why I argue and discuss it the way I do because it's all well and good to discuss it in an abstract way, but living it and enduring the consequences of it is an entirely different thing and I don't think that's a fair burden to put up on any member of a group that suffers from societal and governmental discrimination.
I don't think you really need to read the entirety of my posting history to see that this issue, as timely as it is, is clearly an issue I'm invested in and it's precisely this point why I argue and discuss it the way I do because it's all well and good to discuss it in an abstract way, but living it and enduring the consequences of it is an entirely different thing and I don't think that's a fair burden to put up on any member of a group that suffers from societal and governmental discrimination.
It isn't fair, no. But when the discussion is public, you should expect different views.
I think that in CFC OT one almost never actually sees really vile views - though they do exist IRL. Which makes it a bit problematic if simply not 100% supportive views are identified as hostile.
Goes without saying, of course, that the above is in no way special to TG discussion. It happens with any discussion.
I think that in CFC OT one almost never actually sees really vile views - though they do exist IRL. Which makes it a bit problematic if simply not 100% supportive views are identified as hostile.
Goes without saying, of course, that the above is in no way special to TG discussion. It happens with any discussion.
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I strongly disagree. I won't elaborate further as that is outside the scope of this thread.
I mean, the more involved one is with the issue, the easier to identify a non entirely supportive view as hostile, or worse. Eg I recall my own sentiments in threads about how Greece is handled by the EU.
Moriarte
Immortal
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This is one of the best free platforms you can go to spread your ideas directly through people across multiple continents. Appreciate it. Your opponent is tactful and respectful, even when he disagrees with you. Convince with reason. “Respond in increasingly hostile ways” and you’ll be treated with passing neglect.
JohannaK
Heroically Clueless
Infraction for trolling
Disdainful neglect sems more accurate and also seems to be the default mode of engagement. In other words, politeness makes no difference, so why bother?
gay_Aleks
from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
The best platform if you wish to debate liberals in their 30s about things that really shouldn't have to be discussed, mostly about the fundamental rights that even the supposed liberal democracy is providing.
We're on a public Internet forum.
The header at the top of a page says it is a discussion and that you started it.
One would think entering and debating is what is expected of people here.
For overwhelming majority of people, trans issues are not personal.
Would you rather have them ignore those issues/discussions?
Cloud_Strife
Deity
At best the response I've been given is a consistant lack of interest and a complete lack of willingness to understand or entertain the fact that transpeople are an incredibly vulnerable and marginalized group whose issues require more than just an upholding of everybody's rights to in anyway adequately deal with.
I cannot convince someone who is far removed enough from the topic and issue that they think this is genuinely the way forward. I cannot convince someone who fails to grasp why for minorities NO dicussing of bigotry, legal rights and discrimination can ever be done in the truly detached or impersonal way that a white, cis straight male could do.
gay_Aleks
from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free!
The issue here is not so much that he's debating, but rather, that he fails to take in consideration the things that numerous trans people have told him in the past, and still going with the very same arguments that he came in; it would appear, that there has been a failure to understand anything that we have talked about. It shows that he is detached from it all, and for him it is some sort of an abstract topic to chat about, and not the lives of people put at stake.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
I'd rather they enter and treat the topic with a bit more decency and take into account the issues we talk about aren't merely topics of debate but real life experiences and problems.
If you enter and talk in a way that indicates you have either no skin in the game or will simply treat this as debate you're going to get people backs up when you make suggestions that fail to take into account the problems they face.
It's literally the "all people's rights matter!" argument and its facile when applied to PoCs and it's facile here.
Cloud_Strife
Deity
Like, if you genuinely don't know much about a community or their struggles, it's incumbent on you to do some basic research or/and outreach; go into their spaces and research, read what their experiences, ask them questions but don't do so in a way that fundamentally ignores their issues.
I haven't seen any of that so far, I haven't seen any desire to re-evaluate the opinion put forth, I've seen doubling down, I've been told that doing nothing in response to an event is somehow a wholely neutral act, nothing so far has given me any sense of an actual understanding of the issues brought up in this thread.
How many times have i had to repeat myself and not have my message listened to? This isn't an academic debate, this is real life and the problem isn't so much that the views espoused by someone like JK Rowling aren't going to be the basis for future negative acts against us the, the problem is that they already ARE, which makes it worse than if they'd just suddenly been introduced because she's giving support to an outwardly bigoted view on a community she herself has nothing but apathy (at best!) for and just because terf's have repacked old transphobia under the guise of feminism in an attempt to purge any and everyone they disagree with as not being a true "woman" doesn't mean it's not another form of bigotry that shouldn't be outright fought.
The conversation around minority experiences is so ****ed and detached from humanity that we're essentially being asked and TOLD to put the opinions of a group of people it's directly affecting and those on the polar opposite, white straight, cis men as being equally valid and worthy of entertaining; I'm not Jewish okay, so i defer to the Jewish Community's experiences, I'm not black so i defer to the black community's but that seems to be an alien or a foreign concept for some here and in general and that's going to piss some of us off who feel it's yet another topic that people can enter and post about as if it's a hypothetical or a game.
I haven't seen any of that so far, I haven't seen any desire to re-evaluate the opinion put forth, I've seen doubling down, I've been told that doing nothing in response to an event is somehow a wholely neutral act, nothing so far has given me any sense of an actual understanding of the issues brought up in this thread.
How many times have i had to repeat myself and not have my message listened to? This isn't an academic debate, this is real life and the problem isn't so much that the views espoused by someone like JK Rowling aren't going to be the basis for future negative acts against us the, the problem is that they already ARE, which makes it worse than if they'd just suddenly been introduced because she's giving support to an outwardly bigoted view on a community she herself has nothing but apathy (at best!) for and just because terf's have repacked old transphobia under the guise of feminism in an attempt to purge any and everyone they disagree with as not being a true "woman" doesn't mean it's not another form of bigotry that shouldn't be outright fought.
The conversation around minority experiences is so ****ed and detached from humanity that we're essentially being asked and TOLD to put the opinions of a group of people it's directly affecting and those on the polar opposite, white straight, cis men as being equally valid and worthy of entertaining; I'm not Jewish okay, so i defer to the Jewish Community's experiences, I'm not black so i defer to the black community's but that seems to be an alien or a foreign concept for some here and in general and that's going to piss some of us off who feel it's yet another topic that people can enter and post about as if it's a hypothetical or a game.
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