Judas...

[Xanikk999]

I thought jesus even forgave the person who crucified him. Wouldnt it be the same for judas?

 

[Irish Caesar]

Why do so many people misplace blame? Did you not see the part of my post where I said that Satan entered Judas?

Christ chose Judas as one of His Apostles. All Judas had to do, was follow Christ, and Judas would have been saved. Judas had a choice. He cast his lot with those who would kill Jesus. No automaton there.

God foresaw all of this.

John 13:18-19
"I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.' I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He."

A better conclusion for you, Cheetah, would be that Satan is evil; and that God knows your future, but doesn't fix it in stone.

If Satan entered him, then Judas was not acting of his own free will. As Jesus drove out demons and stared down Satan, I don't see how this would keep Judas out of Heaven.

As a side note, the Bible I have refers to the one who was lost as "the son of destruction," which seems like a strange way to refer to Judas. I'm not offering any other interpretation, mind you. Just sayin'...

 

[Quasar1011]

If Satan entered him, then Judas was not acting of his own free will. As Jesus drove out demons and stared down Satan, I don't see how this would keep Judas out of Heaven.

I think you mean, after Satan entered Judas, then Judas was not acting of his free will. But Judas invited Satan in; Satan cannot barge into one's body uninvited. Neither does the Lord enter one's body univited.

There was a progression of Satan's activity in the life of Judas.

John 12:4-6
But one of his disciples, Judas Iscariot, who was later to betray him, objected, "Why wasn't this perfume sold and the money given to the poor? It was worth a year's wages." He did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it.

John 13:2
The evening meal was being served, and the devil had already prompted Judas Iscariot, son of Simon, to betray Jesus.

John 13:27
As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him.

This is why sin is so serious. Demons dwell in spiritual darkness, and sin is spiritual darkness. When a person sins, it is as if he is inviting demons into his life. Sins that are mind-altering (drunkeness, drug use) are the most effective at turning over a person's will gradually to demonic influence. Demonic activity then can turn from oppression, to possession. The spiritual battlefield between God and Satan is literally waged in the minds of mankind- which is why I earlier quoted this verse:

2nd Corinthians 4:4
The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

 

[warpus]

But Judas invited Satan in; Satan cannot barge into one's body uninvited. Neither does the Lord enter one's body univited.

Forgive me for saying that this is sounding more and more ridiculous!

First question, how would I invite Satan into my body, if I wanted to?

Second question, can't God do what he wants? Or did you mean that he doesn't want to enter a body unless he's been invited?

 

[Heretic_Cata]

In Dante's Inferno, Judas is in the last circle of hell being chewed by one of the 3 heads of Satan.

Have a nice day.

 

[Cheetah]

Why do so many people misplace blame? Did you not see the part of my post where I said that Satan entered Judas?

Christ chose Judas as one of His Apostles. All Judas had to do, was follow Christ, and Judas would have been saved. Judas had a choice. He cast his lot with those who would kill Jesus. No automaton there.

God foresaw all of this.

John 13:18-19
"I am not referring to all of you; I know those I have chosen. But this is to fulfill the scripture: 'He who shares my bread has lifted up his heel against me.' I am telling you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe that I am He."

A better conclusion for you, Cheetah, would be that Satan is evil; and that God knows your future, but doesn't fix it in stone.

So God foresaw what Judas would do when he created him, yet did nothing to alter the situation or help Judas?

I think you mean, after Satan entered Judas, then Judas was not acting of his free will. But Judas invited Satan in; Satan cannot barge into one's body uninvited. Neither does the Lord enter one's body univited.

But why did Jesus help all those other people who were possesed by Satan and other demons? They must also have invited Satan in, right? Why didn't Jesus help Judas then? And even if he didn't help Judas, why condemn him to hell?

 

[Homie]

So God foresaw what Judas would do when he created him, yet did nothing to alter the situation or help Judas?

This is nothing but the evil-argument. Like:
If God knew Hitler would be responsible for millions of deaths, why didn't he prevent it somehow?
If God knew about the Tsunami that would kill thousands, why didn't He intervene. Blah blah...

God doesn't intervene in every instance, if He did, it would eliminate free-will, and our purpose would be lost.

Judas knew he did something wrong, and now he'll pay for it, its that simple.

 

[Cheetah]

I don't think it's the same.

In Judas' case he was a tool in Gods plan to save most of humanity. God must have calculated that Judas would do what he did, or else his plan wouldn't work!

God created a soul to betray Jesus, in order to fullfill his plan. I can not see how any loving God could then proceed to send Judas to hell!

And if Judas hadn't done it, then someone else would have needed to. And if noone was realy needed to do it, then how come Jesus say that it must be done to fullfill the Scriptures?

God created Judas to suffer in hell.

 

[warpus]

I don't think it's the same.

In Judas' case he was a tool in Gods plan to save most of humanity. God must have calculated that Judas would do what he did, or else his plan wouldn't work!

God created a soul to betray Jesus, in order to fullfill his plan. I can not see how any loving God could then proceed to send Judas to hell!

And if Judas hadn't done it, then someone else would have needed to. And if noone was realy needed to do it, then how come Jesus say that it must be done to fullfill the Scriptures?

God created Judas to suffer in hell.

And on top of that we have someone claiming that Judas was actually posessed by Satan at the time and thus not responsible for his actions anyway.

If Quasar1011 is to be believed, then the only thing we can find Judas guilty for is "inviting Satan", which apparently is just sinning.. which all of us paratke in.

IMO Judas is the part of the story that is meant to be taken as a moral lesson. ie. for good to happen you often require evil.. or something like that. It is when you interpret the account literally that you start running into logistical problems - mostly with the nature of God.

 

[Quasar1011]

First question, how would I invite Satan into my body, if I wanted to?

Like I said, demon possession is a progression of events.

Ephesians 4:27
and do not give the devil a foothold.

Sin gives the devil a foothold in a person's life. The devil (and his demons) chiefly wage war against humanity, through the mind, the will.

2 Timothy 2:26
and that they will come to their senses and escape from the trap of the devil, who has taken them captive to do his will.

1 Timothy 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.

One doesn't just "invite" a demon into his life, in the sense you are asking. Rather, in the giving over of a person's will to sinful practices, demons exhibit more and more influence upon the person's life. At some point, when such a person surrenders his/her will, a demon may enter. How does a person surrender their will? There are many ways: through drugs, alcohol, hypnotism, occultism, etc.

Lastly, Satan can only be in one place at a time. It is likely he would be hanging around Congress or the UN or the Middle East, rather than bother with a Civ player.

Second question, can't God do what he wants? Or did you mean that he doesn't want to enter a body unless he's been invited?

Exactly. God is a gentleman.

Revelation 3:20
"Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me."

 

[Quasar1011]

So God foresaw what Judas would do when he created him, yet did nothing to alter the situation or help Judas?

You don't think selecting Judas as a disciple was God's attempt at trying to help Judas?
You cannot accuse God of doing nothing to help Judas! Why not accuse Satan of doing something to hurt Judas?

But why did Jesus help all those other people who were possesed by Satan and other demons? They must also have invited Satan in, right?

No. Satan can only be in one place at a time. Satan tried to enter Peter, if you read the Bible.

Mark 8:33
But when Jesus turned and looked at his disciples, he rebuked Peter. "Get behind me, Satan!" he said. "You do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."

Jesus helped the other demon-possessed people, because he loved them. As I recall, the only 2 people in the entire Bible that Satan himself successfully possesses, are Judas, and the coming Anti-Christ.

One reason why Jesus did not help Judas at the betrayal, was that there were bigger things going on than the life of Judas; the spiritual destiny of the universe was hanging in the balance! This was the prophesied battle between Jesus and Satan; Judas, like Adam, became Satan's willing pawn.

And even if he didn't help Judas, why condemn him to hell?

God doesn't condemn anybody to Hell. Judas chose to go there, by rejecting Christ.