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July Patch - Upcoming Changelog Discussion Thread

Discussion in 'Community Patch Project' started by Gazebo, Jul 14, 2019.

  1. create0

    create0 Chieftain

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    Thank you for such an herculean solution. Totally agreed with the concept. It really worked for me.
     
  2. chicorbeef

    chicorbeef Emperor

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    First of all Gazebo, thank you again for putting in the work that keeps this whole thing going while also pulling together everyone's ideas! Thank you for still finding the time to do this even when you're so busy.

    I'll add in my own feedback to add to everyone else's:
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
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  3. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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    On this one:
    Burghers: removed TR to other civs' bonus; added '1 specialist in each city no longer produces unhappiness

    Some of the initial feedback has been "this doesn't make sense, as fealty is not the specialist tree".


    We do have precedence for this, especially in the later trees. For example, even though rationalism is the "science tree", imperialism has several science bonuses as well, just not to the same extent. So I'm not innately against Fealty getting a few bonuses outside of its core niche. Now whether this is the right change or not we should debate, but I wouldn't want to discount that type of bonus right off the bat.

    Funny enough, I am going to narrow in on the smallest change in these patch notes:

    Arabia:
    UB: now +3 gold (was +4)


    Culturally, I don't like this change for several reasons:

    1) Arabia has no consensus for nerfing. I still hold that the only 2 civs that had a consistent community note for adjustment was China (too strong) and Venice (too weak in AI hands). I think every other change to civs was premature.
    2) This change is so small....what are we accomplishing here? This may seem ultra nit picky to some, but my concern is this notion that we can get absolute perfect balance with civs. We can't. If a change this small can actually address the balance of a civ, than that means our system is so swingy that a few GPT can change things and that is a much bigger problem.

    And if such a change really doesn't make a difference, than why make it? This goes back to the "Gold Standard" concern, if we keep getting this nit picky about civ balance we will never ever finish tweaking them.

    I think we are at the point with Civs that we can tier them. Our goal should get the civs in roughly the same tiers, but we will never get them to perfectly align with each other. Arabia was a good solid civ, but not top tier like China. It doesn't need adjustment, and certainly not sometimes this min-ute.
     
  4. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    I'm aligned with chicorbeef, with the following exceptions: no opinion on Tribute and Burghers, and I have no problem with Germany being nerfed to whatever degree they have been, but wish there were more thematic reasons for the specific changes.

    These patch notes aside, I much prefer nerfing civs like Ethiopia and China that have become a staple atop the leader boards... especially Ethiopia's extremely annoying religious strength and attitude. But I don't see the reason for mild-to-moderate adjustments for civs like Germany or Arabia, unless we decide we want to revisit all civs for final tune-ups.
     
  5. FoxOfWar

    FoxOfWar Prince

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    I am carefully optimistic about the lot of these - admittedly I haven't followed a lot of the balance conversations that closely so I'll just have to play and see.

    I do like the Venice change though. Should be more fun playing a non-warmonger Venice now. (Puppet empire was always fun to me.)
     
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  6. arthurF

    arthurF Warlord

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    Thank you
     
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  7. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Good feedback here, I noticed a few typos in my changelog (I blame lack of sleep). I had compiled a list of community suggestions to process into a changelog, and I forgot to adjust some of the lines.

    General responses to questions/concerns:

    Hospital/Grocer/Workshop. The line should read 'reduced' not 'removed' - the base yields for workshop and hospital are now +2, not +0. Grocer did have it's +1 removed, however.

    Growth function:
    The changes I'm tinkering with primarily affect the mid and mid-late game in terms of cities that grow almost by accident. It means that farms and terrain food will remain important, whereas in the current version a lot of passive/instant food can propel cities forward without any farms whatsoever.​
    Border growth function:
    AI often runs out of border tiles to naturally grow into by the industrial era. My changes push this into the modern. Nothing major.​
    Ethiopia:
    SR +faith on UA removed because, frankly, it is bloat.​
    Arabia
    UB gold reduction is small, but is intended to keep Arabia's UB 'neutral' with the bump of the merchant specialist by 1.​
    Germany:
    Typo: they keep the GAP at ally/friend (+2 at each level, actually, so a slight buff in that way). You just won't compound science and culture from allies/friends, they'll be exchanged. Gives Germany a reason, if slight, to pursue open doors in some CSs it can't influence, or to allow some CSs to slip away for realpolitik purposes and still have a solid buff.​
    China:
    I knew this would hurt. There's just no easy way to balance +1c gained as easily as it was. I've tinkered with +gold and +production, and I like +gold more for it's synergy with the Paper Maker. Besides, again, I'm trying to clip the 'free floating food/production' issue we're seeing.​

    Expertise: is +15, not +12, from buildings

    Tribute: losing food from expansion does mean that Authority will want for food. But I think this sharpens the divide between Tradition and others in a good way.

    Tradition: left out of changelog: growth scaler reduced to 5%/3% (was 5%/5%)


    I also left off a few RCS changes:


    Code:
    Adjusted RCS for a few late units
                Gatling Gun (47/45)
                Cavalry (43/42)
                Berber Cavalry (47/46)
                Cossack (49/47)
                Machine Gun (62/60)
                Light Tank (60/58)
                Bazooka (67/65)
                Rocket Artillery (79/75)
                Helicopter (68/65)
    G
     
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  8. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    That ought to reassure most people.

    I figured you were thinking Papermaker.
     
  9. Stalker0

    Stalker0 Baller Magnus

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  10. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    i just think gold is a really strange choice for role-play. Most pop-history will tell you that China’s greatest historical weakness was its negligence, bordering on contempt, of financial instruments and international trade. It just seems like the most un-China-ey yield to pick of the options available.

    :c5food: - yes. China has an enormous population and invented bi-annual crop rice farming and many other innovations which allowed them to support a massive population quickly
    :c5culture: - absolutely. The bureaucratic system which sprung up to support a deeply ingrained political machine. A rich history of arts and letters. Philosophy and poetry, and a deep sense of China as the center of cultural landscape with Korea, Japan, and smaller southeast Asian nations in its orbit.
    :c5production: - sure. China had craftsmen and artisans creating silk, bronze, steel and all sorts of tools of industry in greater number and variety than anywhere else in the world for nearly 2 millenia. At various points in history, it is estimated that China produced up to 1/3 of the entire planet’s GDP.
    :c5science: - absolutely. The four great inventions. By 200 BC, China had repeating crossbows, trebuchets, large standing armies and bureaucracies to administer a sophisticated feudal society.
    :c5faith: - I guess. 2 of the default religions in the game are Chinese (Confucianism and Taoism). 3 if you count Shintoism, which is basically Japanese Taoist fan-fiction.
    :c5gold: - ??? China invented many things, but they did not invent insurance, stock trading, mortgages, sophisticated debt instruments, double-entry accounting, corporations, etc. They did not contribute very meaningfully to the field of economics. Their inventions weren’t effectively leveraged for financial gain, their international trade missions had financial benefits subordinated completely by diplomatic concerns. They never exerted any significant interest to protect or promote the Silk Road trade routes either.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
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  11. CrazyG

    CrazyG Deity

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    So to be clear, you aren't changing the cost of the first citizen to 20 (that would be 33% slower growth in ancient era). I'm very concerned that this goes too far. Also, tradition is top dog even with slightly less bonus growth, and I'm pretty sure aestheticism is going to be too good if food is actually scarce.
     
  12. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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  13. Rosaria's Sandwiches

    Rosaria's Sandwiches Chieftain

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    I'd rather have current China lose all its yields on Era change than the proposed changes; the rest of the changes seem interesting and I'm looking forward to test that out
     
  14. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    You could say most if not all of the same about Carthage.

    More seriously, apart from paper money, China had a very robust series of very far-ranging trade arrangements up to the Admiral Heng era, and an internal economic system that kept them on a par with Europe until the 19th century. If you leapfrog less than 200 years (a wink of an eye for China), they now have a unique hybrid economic system that may wind up knocking the West off its perch.

    All that by way of saying an argument supporting Gazebo's choice exists.
     
  15. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Love you Dan, but please don’t lecture me on history. China’s internal market economy was so large relative to global powers throughout, well, most of history, that the mere attempt to engage with china via trade pulled merchants from across the world. Not to mention that many of the dynastic upheavals that punctuate Chinese history were preluded or catalyzed by fluctuations in china’s currency and financial stability. Gold, as an abstraction of market power, is perfectly reasonable for China.

    G
     
  16. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Trying to argue against a change using historical basis = lecturing you. K.

    IMO it could be :c5food:/:c5science: instead of :c5food:/:c5culture:. It’s at least as relevant.
    ehhhh... the merchants in purple? The wine trade with Egypt? Robust trade with Israel and various North African tribes? Vigorous exploration and colonization of Spain, Portugal, Crete, Sicily, Tunisia, Morocco, etc? If they didn’t have a gold focus I don’t know what else you would give them.
     
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2019
  17. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    Arguing from pop history implies that I know so little about Chinese history that even a cursory glance at it would prove me wrong.

    Anyways, let's move on.

    G
     
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  18. Gazebo

    Gazebo Lord of the Community Patch Supporter

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    To dissuade any concerns that I've overnerfed...

    upload_2019-7-15_21-39-33.png

    The scoreboard seems to disagree (I've been running permutations with changed civs to see if they underperform, so far they've done just as well as always).

    G
     
  19. Txurce

    Txurce Deity

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    Couldn't agree more. And I could put together a comparable list for China. Doesn't negate my point re: Carthage and your OP, which is that if you don't think China qualifies for the reasons you stated, then pretty much neither does Carthage.
     
  20. pineappledan

    pineappledan Deity

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    Quite the opposite really. You could argue X is Y type of civilization for at least half these things because you have a PhD studying empires 'n' stuff. Civ is a game of gross abstractions and simplifications of entire cultures (in China's case an entire complex of cultures) and thousands of years of history. It's big dumb pop history, and from a big dumb pop history view of China, they don't trade gud, they science and culture and have lots of people gud, hurr durr.
     
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