July Patch - Upcoming Changelog Discussion Thread

[CrazyG]

No response?

G

I suppose should have said "not much response". I'm was already aware that 13>12, so the costs were going up; you haven't explained the system much beyond that. I understand the base threshold number, I'm guessing the 13 hits mid-game costs the most, and the exponential one hits late game costs the most?

I do really like that your more recent test has put the base threshold back to 15.

 

[tu_79]

I almost laughed at CrazyG stunned by a Settler difficulty pace, if it were not a major concern to me.

Are you people fine with noobs playing at Settler difficulty to require 450 turns to end the game, while deity players can finish the game in 250 turns?
Please, consider it seriously.

 

[K_away_0514]

Are you people fine with noobs playing at Settler difficulty to require 450 turns to end the game, while deity players can finish the game in 250 turns?

I believe the suboptimal strategies pursued by the settler AI leads to a slower game. A human, making better decisions, would probably end the game faster. I'm at Prince currently, and there's no way I can win in 250 turns, so I would hope the AI to be closer to my pace instead of deity players'.

 

[tu_79]

I believe the suboptimal strategies pursued by the settler AI leads to a slower game. A human, making better decisions, would probably end the game faster. I'm at Prince currently, and there's no way I can win in 250 turns, so I would hope the AI to be closer to my pace instead of deity players'.

No. It's just AI with fewer resources, higher costs. Player can influence the outcome, yes, but it is mostly due to AI handicaps. Remember that you research faster a technology if it has been already researched by others

 

[K_away_0514]

No. It's just AI with fewer resources, higher costs. Player can influence the outcome, yes, but it is mostly due to AI handicaps. Remember that you research faster a technology if it has been already researched by others

But if the player is ahead in tech wouldn't the AI also tech faster, therefore speeding up the game? How much of the effect on the number of turns is related to handicaps compared to other factors such as player skill? Apologies for all the questions, I would really like to know more about this mod.

 

[crdvis16]

I play at Deity and my games still often go longer than 400 turns- just depends on the conditions. In my experience it's something like:

- Tourism/culture run aways winning as early as 285 (that was Ethiopia with practically every wonder) but more likely tourism wins around turn 375-400 or so.

- Diplo wins around turn 400ish

- Science wins around turn 400-425

- Domination I haven't actually seen in forever because typically someone that takes 6 capitals will win via another method before taking the 7th. I play on continents though so it's harder for someone to snatch all capitals super fast.

 

[Txurce]

I play at Deity and my games still often go longer than 400 turns- just depends on the conditions. In my experience it's something like:

- Tourism/culture run aways winning as early as 285 (that was Ethiopia with practically every wonder) but more likely tourism wins around turn 375-400 or so.

- Diplo wins around turn 400ish

- Science wins around turn 400-425

- Domination I haven't actually seen in forever because typically someone that takes 6 capitals will win via another method before taking the 7th. I play on continents though so it's harder for someone to snatch all capitals super fast.

This jibes with my Emperor/Immortal games, in that they're slightly slower.

 

[CrazyG]

while deity players can finish the game in 250 turns?
Please, consider it seriously.

I said I invented the gatling gun on turn 250, not that I had won. It's been a long time since the turn 250 victories were common for me on Deity.

 

[tu_79]

I said I invented the gatling gun on turn 250, not that I had won. It's been a long time since the turn 250 victories were common for me on Deity.

Yes. That was when Gazebo added a tech requirement to the cultural victory...

Well, maybe I was exaggerating, but it still stands that the harder the difficulty the shorter the game.

@K_away_0514, you are one player, AI are 7 players in a standard game. Their behavior weights more.

Edit. We could retake some stats gathering, to see what date and turns the games are taking to finish.

 

[pineappledan]

What do people think about the buff to paratroopers/XCOMs? Is that really necessary? I’ve actually seen a couple people calling for a nerf to XCOMs in particular, just because their city capture potential in tandem with nukes/bombers is so potent

 

[Stalker0]

What do people think about the buff to paratroopers/XCOMs? Is that really necessary? I’ve actually seen a couple people calling for a nerf to XCOMs in particular, just because their city capture potential in tandem with nukes/bombers is so potent

Its on my watchlist for my next round of plays. Because melee units were strengthened, I understand the change there. Ultimately though, it may not be necessary, especially with Xcoms as they are so incredibly mobile. So I want to see it, but I could definitely so the possibility of changing those units back.

I'm probably going to run some Industrial Era starts so I can see the later game warring in action.

 

[Revolutionist_8]

What do people think about the buff to paratroopers/XCOMs? Is that really necessary? I’ve actually seen a couple people calling for a nerf to XCOMs in particular, just because their city capture potential in tandem with nukes/bombers is so potent

I think I like it, if they are in enemy territory they should be able to hold themselves. If you nuke a city to 0 hp, any unit can take it, so I think that's concern is a bit irrelevant

 

[RuntimeError]

Yes. That was when Gazebo added a tech requirement to the cultural victory...

Well, maybe I was exaggerating, but it still stands that the harder the difficulty the shorter the game.

@K_away_0514, you are one player, AI are 7 players in a standard game. Their behavior weights more.

Edit. We could retake some stats gathering, to see what date and turns the games are taking to finish.

Are slightly shorter games at higher difficulties really a problem to focus at this particular moment?

 

[Asterix Rage]

I’ve actually seen a couple people calling for a nerf to XCOMs in particular, just because their city capture potential in tandem with nukes/bombers is so potent

The problem here is not about Paratroopers/XCOMs. Nuke is

 

[tu_79]

Are slightly shorter games at higher difficulties really a problem to focus at this particular moment?

Why? Is there any other problematic issue at hand?

 

[Bhawb]

I've never had significant problems with paratroopers because they more or less perform their job in a mostly balanced way. Yeah its annoying to have a bunch of nerds dropping into your land, but just an extra unit or two in your near-frontlines are enough to stop them pretty quickly, and I can't usually abuse the AI with them unless I'm already completely demolishing them, like an Aztec game where I was Eiffel-towering Ethiopia by myself and had 4 fully upgraded Paratroopers doing unrepeatable things.

But XCOMs need to die in a fire. I have literally never had fun when XCOMs are involved. They're super annoying even in AI's subpar use of them, and if I use them it legitimately feels like bullying a small child by holding stuff above their head so they can't reach it.

 

[CrazyG]

Yes. That was when Gazebo added a tech requirement to the cultural victory...

No. There currently is no science requirement. Its slower because social policies cost more than they used to do, its harder to get permanent golden ages, several beliefs have changed, and because we reworked fealty, statecraft, and artistry. Its harder to snowball culture and science that it used to be (on very old patches, I had a tourism win on turn 170 and science on turn 200).

The pacing of G's other picture looks fine, and I really like that he is putting the base threshold to 15 instead of 20 like his original suggestion, as so far one has complained about early game growth.

 

[saamohod]

any unit can take it

But not any unit can teleport (paradrop) from the frontline straight to the gates of the city.

 

[Rekk]

But not any unit can teleport (paradrop) from the frontline straight to the gates of the city.

Which has nothing to do with the combat strength of the unit.

 

[Stalker0]

Which has nothing to do with the combat strength of the unit.

Of course it does. A unit that can paradrop in and soak 4 hits, or deal 20 damage to a city....is stronger than a unit that can paradrop and only soak 2 hits, or deal 10 damage to a city.

Now that is an extreme example of course, but the point is that CS does matter. I think its worth testing because melee units did get stronger in general, so we want to see how the paratrooper stands in this new world of stronger melee/weaker ranged. It might be fine with its new strength, it might be a bit too strong, we will see.