Jury Service

The pool and the panel only needs to be relfective of society in so far as no one is unconstitutionally denying the defendant to a fair trial by a jury "of his peers." Again, it's not about fairness to the jurors, its about fairness to the parties to the case. Ensuring randomness is not really part of it either, other than who gets chosen to be in the pool from which the panel is to be made.

We are ascertaining if they are biased one way or the other, and yes, also trying to get an idea of who they are based on very very general questions. But in all honesty rarely do we get some sort of amazing insight into a juror that lets us know exactly what we should say to them. It's still a huge guessing game. Every time the panel is still a bunch of unknowns and we are just trying to find those clear outliers or sometimes expose something interesting in our case and see how jurors react to it, almost like a pre-trial focus group. It's a great benefit to a litigator who knows how to do that. I do agree with you that this tactic might not befit a system where we are just interested in knowing the facts and arriving at some sort of objective, coldly rational decision, but that is just not how our trial system is set up. That sounds more like an inquisition-based system like they have in France or something. In an adversarial system with a right to a jury trial, this works better than just seating the first 12 people that walk in the door, in my opinion.

I didn't mean to imply anything about fairness to the jury but that it is not a 'jury of his peers' if all his peers are picked for him as then it is biased, having a completely random set of 12 generally means collectively that the 12 combined will be unbiased. One area I would like to see moved over from the U.S. to here is that your pool uses the driving database as well as the voting registration, whereas ours just uses voting registration so is not an entire representation of our society.

I haven't studied American law extensively but from my bare reading of it, the problem is that Voir dire in America is that they can extensively question potential jurors. Therefore can find out specific details.

The justice system here is quite similar to that in france except where they have given power to the judge we took that power away hundreds of years ago and gave it to an impartial jury.

I just don't see it that way. Again, maybe I am just being cynical but I don't see our criminal justice system dispensing "justice." It is built to try and process people through the system like cattle. And civil trials, man don't get me started. Cases always settle because everyone knows that the outcome of a civil trial is often completely impossible to predict and a total crap-shoot. You also have the issue of the system being built for those with the money to play with it. Criminal trials and especially civil trials to me are not about justice, at all. That might be written on the masonry outside but once you walk through those doors and start seeing what is going on, it's a different world.

Perhaps your outlook is based on the fact that America currently inprisons (is it?) 3% of its total population, no other country in the world in its entire history has inprisoned so many. After seeing some of the inner workings of the courts in England I do see the justice system as predominantly working, changes could be made- not least the time and the amount of money given to criminal (a report recently states that a barrister receives less per hour than a mechanic, not to say a mechanic is not a good job but if you had the prospect of life in prison you'd probably want someone defending you who is being paid more than £7 an hour!)

Yeah that's really different, I am probably not understanding your system. I guess I assumed it was more similar to ours... that's interesting though. Here you basically have two sides who are very, very motivated to "win the case." It's very competitive. Prosecutors have "ethics" about being fair and having a duty to respect the rights of the defendant, blah blah blah, but they rarely if ever do that and are usually all about getting a conviction.

Prosecutors here also have to provide exculpatory evidence to the defense and all that jazz, but even when they screw that up, they usually get away with it. Defendants here do not have to take the stand either. Problem is juries will often hold that against the defendant, even though the Judge tells them not to. Jurors have a hard time understanding the concept of innocent til proven guilty and the burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt no matter how many jury instructions we give them.

Which goes back to my original point... voire dire can pick those people out sometimes. That's usually something a Judge will ask if he or she doesn't let the lawyers ask it. Don't you think that's an important question to ask potential jurors?

Maybe it is due to the history/cultural differences of our law but the code of ethics among practicing members of the justice system is very strong. Also by law the defence only has to answer to the charges provided to them by the prosecution using the evidence provided (then whatever else they provide).

With the innocent till proven guilty and reasonable doubt, again perhaps a cultural issue, but there was a recent study done looking into Jury trials by Cheryl Thomas and she found that most jury members can and do follow the majority of instructions of the judge, that they do understand what is going on in court and that they are not leniant (perceptions which were increased by the media in cases such as the Jubilee line case crashing after a good £25 million had apparently been spent on it).
 
With the innocent till proven guilty and reasonable doubt, again perhaps a cultural issue, but there was a recent study done looking into Jury trials by Cheryl Thomas and she found that most jury members can and do follow the majority of instructions of the judge, that they do understand what is going on in court and that they are not leniant (perceptions which were increased by the media in cases such as the Jubilee line case crashing after a good £25 million had apparently been spent on it).
On the juries I have been on nobody had any problem with the innocent until proven guilty or the reasonable doubt aspects. What I did see a problem with was a couple of jurors (different jurys) not wanting to return guilty verdicts even after they had decided the defendant was guilty because of the shame it would bring to the defendant's family!
 
I didn't mean to imply anything about fairness to the jury but that it is not a 'jury of his peers' if all his peers are picked for him as then it is biased, having a completely random set of 12 generally means collectively that the 12 combined will be unbiased. One area I would like to see moved over from the U.S. to here is that your pool uses the driving database as well as the voting registration, whereas ours just uses voting registration so is not an entire representation of our society.

I haven't studied American law extensively but from my bare reading of it, the problem is that Voir dire in America is that they can extensively question potential jurors. Therefore can find out specific details.

The justice system here is quite similar to that in france except where they have given power to the judge we took that power away hundreds of years ago and gave it to an impartial jury.



Perhaps your outlook is based on the fact that America currently inprisons (is it?) 3% of its total population, no other country in the world in its entire history has inprisoned so many. After seeing some of the inner workings of the courts in England I do see the justice system as predominantly working, changes could be made- not least the time and the amount of money given to criminal (a report recently states that a barrister receives less per hour than a mechanic, not to say a mechanic is not a good job but if you had the prospect of life in prison you'd probably want someone defending you who is being paid more than £7 an hour!)



Maybe it is due to the history/cultural differences of our law but the code of ethics among practicing members of the justice system is very strong. Also by law the defence only has to answer to the charges provided to them by the prosecution using the evidence provided (then whatever else they provide).

With the innocent till proven guilty and reasonable doubt, again perhaps a cultural issue, but there was a recent study done looking into Jury trials by Cheryl Thomas and she found that most jury members can and do follow the majority of instructions of the judge, that they do understand what is going on in court and that they are not leniant (perceptions which were increased by the media in cases such as the Jubilee line case crashing after a good £25 million had apparently been spent on it).

How is seating 12 random people ensuring that they are not biased? Random does not equal impartial. The only way to judge impartiality is to ask. I would be much more worried that the jury is biased if I have absolutely no idea who they are, what they think about the case, what they think of the police, what they think about x y z, etc.

As for our ethics compared to English ones, I don't know. I know English barristers look down at American attorneys. I play poker every week with an English barrister getting his LLM here and he says we're not viewed too highly by you guys.:cry: I know you guys have a practice year before you can be licensed or something, which I think would be great to have here.

As far as jurors "not getting it," I don't want to sound like I am disparaging people's intelligence because jurors by and large try their best and people are not stupid in general, IMHO, but people's perceptions of how trials work are way to influenced by popular media, at least over here. I always got the feeling that jurors just didn't "get it" when the defendant didn't take the stand. I remember a few comments where they found our guy guilty and this came up, unfortunately. People's inherent biases and pre-conceptions factor heavily into their decisions and I think to most people that just seems "suspicious" even though they think they're giving him a fair shake.
 
Those who were picked were of 1 particular stock: they were the ones who were in the least educated jobs who gave the dumbest answers. Essentially, what the counsels wanted were pliable sheep, easily led to whatever conclusions they wanted, and without a trace of critical thought.
That's funny because the attorneys and judge in my particular case were looking for just the opposite. They selected people who had college educations for the most part and who understood the basics of fair trials, And I think in this particular case, it was an inherent part of the case being properly resolved.

Do you get money for being a juror in America?
In my particular case, it was $15 a day. But that is only if your employer didn't pay you anyway. So if I had applied for the money, it would have worked out to about $1.30 per hour in my particular case...

Also, the jury manager claimed the going rate in California is not $5 per day.

Nope. You’ll notice how careful Forma is being with not telling us any details.
And now that the trial is finally over, I can do so! Let me catch my breath and I'll make a lengthy post explaining the case in some detail, because I think it reveals how fleeting justice really may be in this great country of ours, as well as how important it is to find relatively intelligent people to serve on the jury. This case could have very well have ended in an OJ Simpson-stlye travesty of justide.
 
How is seating 12 random people ensuring that they are not biased? Random does not equal impartial. The only way to judge impartiality is to ask. I would be much more worried that the jury is biased if I have absolutely no idea who they are, what they think about the case, what they think of the police, what they think about x y z, etc.

Because you are looking at the bias and impartiality of the entire jury when giving the verdict rather sitting each member based on the same cardboard cut out. If you don't think that's a problem, due to the fixed views that quite a few serving on that jury have, then I think we've reached a quandry here :)

As for our ethics compared to English ones, I don't know. I know English barristers look down at American attorneys. I play poker every week with an English barrister getting his LLM here and he says we're not viewed too highly by you guys.:cry: I know you guys have a practice year before you can be licensed or something, which I think would be great to have here.

That's cool, academic barrister or fully qualified? (i.e. has he done his pupillage?) I don't want to start slagging off America here because some of the Ambulance chasing is spreading worldwide but there is a reason why the general populace think lawyers are scumbags. I wouldn't say people look down on American attorneys though, the New York Bar, for example, is a very hard test to pass, I just guess it is easier to enforce a code of ethics on a profession which is a lot smaller (over here) than it is with you guys.

As far as jurors "not getting it," I don't want to sound like I am disparaging people's intelligence because jurors by and large try their best and people are not stupid in general, IMHO, but people's perceptions of how trials work are way to influenced by popular media, at least over here. I always got the feeling that jurors just didn't "get it" when the defendant didn't take the stand. I remember a few comments where they found our guy guilty and this came up, unfortunately. People's inherent biases and pre-conceptions factor heavily into their decisions and I think to most people that just seems "suspicious" even though they think they're giving him a fair shake.

I was trailing a barrister the other week and one woman in the jury had to be booted out because halfway through the trial she wondered what had happened to one of the defendants, she thought that two people had been on trial (the actual defendant and the dock officer) and thus was surprised when this changed. That perception of jury incompetance is fairly strong over here but hopefully that recent research paper (mentioned earlier) will highlight otherwise as all research seems to point towards a well informed jury, taking the 12 members as a whole of course which is the entire point.
 
Because you are looking at the bias and impartiality of the entire jury when giving the verdict rather sitting each member based on the same cardboard cut out.

I'm not sure what you mean by impartiality of the whole as opposed to the group. If you have 12 randoms you know nothing about them. I don't think it's debatable that you can have a better chance at getting rid of biased people by actually asking people on the panel questions, rather than just ignoring them.

And jurors are not selected based on the "same cut out." They are by and large all different and, generally, the ones getting booted are the ones who are similar, i.e. they either a) don't want to be there and are making stuff up; b) have qualities that would indicate too much bias in one way or another.
 
So here's the trial in a fairly lengthy nutshell. I tried to condense it as much as I could, but I didn't want to leave out any of the sailent details either:

Spoiler :
A thirtysomething woman hired a fortysomething man to repair her car with the aid of her teenage son. It had a flat tire and a water leak.

They repaired the tire with some fix-a-flat and threw some stop leak into the radiator. The radiator subsequently burst for some unexplained reason, so they then got a new radiator and installed it. While her son was starting the car after the repairs were ostensibly completed, the electrical wiring under the hood somehow caught fire. The fire department was called, but the accused managed to put it out before they arrived.

They then took out the new radiator and returned it to the store, because it looked like the car was unrepairable based on its apparent value, or lack thereof. They locked up the car. They argue about whether or not he deserves the $75 for doing all the work. She relents and pays him.

Her version of the story from there:

The accused then realized he had left a tool in the car and needed to retrieve it before it was to be towed away the next day, so he came over that night to get the keys. The plaintiff was sitting on her front porch in her "nightclothes" when he arrived.

He then allegedly forced his way into her house, grabbed her, and wrestled her to the couch where she found herself upside down with her head buried in the pillow making a "T" with the couch. He then moved her rammed two fingers into her vagina, all the time while she is pleading with him to stop. She hears him unzip his pants. A few minutes later, he gets up and suddenly leaves. She stays on the couch too stunned to move for a while.

Eventually she gets up and goes and sits on the bed. After 10 minutes or so of crying, she texts a friend telling her what had happened.

She didn't want the accused to have her keys, so she calls back and claims to talk to his girlfriend, who actually owns the house where the car was being repaired. She tells her that she wants her keys back, but she doesn't want the accused to be the one to do so.

The friend she texted calls back. She and her hubband come over and convince her to call the police. She does so.

The accused then leaves a message on her phone that he will be over to return the keys, but one of his girfriend's daughters will give them to her instead of him. He says he is sorry for what happened. When we first listened to the recording, it wasn't very clear what was said because he has a very thick Spanish accent.

To make it even worse, the way they play the CD so we can hear it is to play the CD on the DA"s laptop wehre it is picked up by a mike on the DA's desk to be output from speakers built into the ceiling over our heads.

A detective sets up a "controlled call" where she gets the accused on the phone to try to get him to admit to what had just happened. Once again, it is very difficult to make out the details of the conversation. But it is clear the defendent repeatedly said "I'm sorry. It won't happen again" after being reassured that neither his girlfriend or her son will find out what happened.

We then get to hear the output from a digital recorder the detective has in his pants or shirt pocket as he confronts the suspect. This recording is almost completely unintelligible.

His version of the story from there:

When they returned from Auto Zone after returning the radiator, she invites him into the house to wash his hands at the kitchen sink while she gets the money to pay him. His hands are still wet when she returns so she stickes the money down the frint of his T-shrt and leaves them there. She then seduces him, takes his hand and puts it on her crotch, unzips his pants and starts "masturbating" him. He gets too excitied and prematurely ejaculates.

She runs from the room. He has semen on his hand so he wipes it on the couch. He sees some on the floor, scoops it up and wipes that on the couch as well.

He claims to have never gone back to the house to get the keys because he had them all the time instead of her.

He thinks the reason she didn't want to eee him again was because either because she blamed him for ruining the car or for not fulfilling her desires by prematurely ejaculating. He claims that during the controlled phone call conversation that he was confused about what was being said. That he thought he was apologizing for one of those two possibilities.

There wasn't much in the way of "forensic" evidence. They appaerntly didn't test for semen at the scene because she claims to not have even known that he had even exaculated. The medical exam showed that her vagina had some tenderness and that she had vaginosis, but that could have been there already or caused by other means.

The attorneys

The head defense attorney was a really sharp black woman in her 30s. She completely picked apart the details of alleged victim's story showing how she changed it over time. For example, she told her friend that she took a shower afterwards. But at the medical exam, she claimed she didn't take one. She claims to have opened her screen door when she doesn't have one. She badgered the plaintiff on the witness stand and gets her to to become aggressive by repeatedly having to deny that she was intentionally lying. And her closing argument was masterfully delivered.

OTOH the prosecuting attorney looked like he just gotten out of school, and he apparently didn't have all that much experience yet. But he is clearly a very bright guy. He always treated everybody with the greatest diffidence and respect. He didn't try to badger the defendent even though he probably could have. He merely highlighted the inconsistencies, asked him about them, and moved on.

So there was a contrast of both apparent experience as well as style between them.

The judge

Remember the recent case where the judge allowed the neo-Nazi who was on trial to conver up his tattoos at great taxpayer expense? Same guy, but I didn't know that until I googled his name last night. He was also appointed to the circuit court by none other than GWB.

As it turned out, he is extremely competent and obviously deserves his circuit judgeship. This guy is sharp.

The deliberation

One of the hardest aspects of being a juror is to not be able to discuss anything with anybody until you retire for deliberation. During the testimony, I found myself wising I could interrupt and say "Hey! Wait a minute here! What about this! And this! Please explain all thse apparent inconsistencies which we are hearing. But you can't. All you can do is try to take a note or two. And this particular judge would also allow us to ask quesitons after all the testimony. But most of the time, the questions came later on, and the person you could ask was the wrong person.

From my perspective, the most difficult aspect of the case were the inconsistencies in her story. If they weren't there, I thought it was pretty open and shut after having the opportunity to hear the controlled call a second time in the courtroom. We wouldn't have heard it another time, except that during questioning the defendent claimed to have thought the conversation was about the car or him not fulfilling her needs instead of being sexually assaulted.

So before we even went into deliberation, I checked with the bailff to find out if we would be able to play back the CDs. He stated that there was no equipment in the deliberation room to do so but that something could be worked out.

At first, the common consensus was that there was likely sufficient doubt about what had happened to acquit him. The inconsistencies in both their testimony, along with the other witnesses, made it really difficult to keep it all straight. There was also their previous criminal backgrounds to consider. She had been caught twice committing petty larceny ostensibly to feed or clothe her family. He had 3 previous unspecified felony convictions.

After arguing back and forth for about an hour over the various inconsisencies, I suggested that we really needed to hear the recordings again, this time not played over the courtroom PA system, but to listen to them at the PC itself so we could hear better. I also suggested that we construct a time line of what had occurred and when. Ironically, since the CDs were "evidence" we had them in the deliberation room with us, but there was no means of playing them.

When we asked the bailiff to arrange it for us, I suggested that we be able to huddle around the DA's PC to hear them better. This turned out to really be the crucial aspect. We also got key numbers for our timeline because the times of the various recordings were stated at the beginning.

When we got back from rehearing all the audio evidence much more clearly, we discussed what they mean to our collective understanding of the facts, and our timeline.

The defendent's accent and apparent lack of ability to understand Engilsh very well had lent a lot of credence to the idea that he may have just been confused when the controlled recording was made. Rehearing the audio showed that he had no difficulty following the discussion. He never asked for anything to be repeated and he didn't show any confusion over what was being said. It also made it clear that his demeanor completely changed during the controlled call once he got out of earshot of others. What we took for confusion was apparently because wanted to give the impression to others who were listening to his side that he was discussing the work on the car and her son.

Sp we voted for the first time. Five hands shot up. One didn't. One person still thought that all the inconsistencies in the plaintiff's testimony was sufficient reason to not vote for guilty.

While we reviewed the inconsistencies again, he read the definition of reasonable doubt which had previously been read to us by the judge. Unfortunately, I didn't keep the papers they gave us so I could quote it here. But basically it stated that reasonable doubt did not include the mere possiblilty that something may be true.

Serving on a jury has turned out to be one of the most difficult things I have ever done. The only thing that really tops it is watching my mother die in front of me in the hospital from terminal cancer.

I also have to mention our bailiff aka lead duck. Whenever we left the jury assembly room, we formed a line based on a fixed position behind him and dutifully walked in his wake to the second floor courtroom. At first there were 48 ducklkings all in a row. It then became 7. But that ritual never changed. We always lined up in our proper order. He explained everything to us about courtroom procedure before it happened. He even provided us all with peppermint candies during one of the all-too-frequent bench conferences. He frequently asked if we needed anything at all. When one of us had a previous committment in the evening of the first day, he arranged that procedings ended quicly enough for him to get there. He was our only contact with the judge and the court. And he did a masterful job of it.
 
Form,

Was the defendant was found guilty or innocent?
 
Juries are ********, ujurors are ********,and most people wrth their salt will refuse the summons or give shoddy excuses.

As onje of the UK's bes legal minds commented a few years back:

"jury service is seen as a burden only those too stupid or incapable are unable to avoid"
 
So here's the trial in a fairly lengthy nutshell. I tried to condense it as much as I could, but I didn't want to leave out any of the sailent details either:
....
Serving on a jury has turned out to be one of the most difficult things I have ever done. The only thing that really tops it is watching my mother die in front of me in the hospital from terminal cancer.

Thanks Form, that was very illuminating. And props for doing it, I have no doubt that it (and any case judged by someone taking their duty seriously when the verdict will have a substantial impact on several lives) was an extremely difficult thing to do.
 
Juries are ********, ujurors are ********,and most people wrth their salt will refuse the summons or give shoddy excuses.

As onje of the UK's bes legal minds commented a few years back:

"jury service is seen as a burden only those too stupid or incapable are unable to avoid"

Before the Criminal Justice Act 2003 which effectively changed that. It was partly because of Auld's Report that this happened.

I'm not sure what you mean by impartiality of the whole as opposed to the group. If you have 12 randoms you know nothing about them. I don't think it's debatable that you can have a better chance at getting rid of biased people by actually asking people on the panel questions, rather than just ignoring them.

And jurors are not selected based on the "same cut out." They are by and large all different and, generally, the ones getting booted are the ones who are similar, i.e. they either a) don't want to be there and are making stuff up; b) have qualities that would indicate too much bias in one way or another.

Theres two seperate issues really,
1. is the jury biased
2. is the juror biased

I don't think it is arguable that when doing Voir Dire they have a particular juror in mind when picking and therefore the type of person they want, this person is probably the same each time for the same crime for obvious reasons; you want someone who will win the case. Therefore how else would they be picking them? to take what you were saying previously, everyone wants to win so it is only human nature to want to win and therefore pick who they can.

So you have 12 people in the jury box who mainly think the same, who follow the same though patterns deemed to be 'ok' by those running the case which generally equate to a middle class (quite often white) conservative nature of the world and therefore the jury itself is biased towards those beliefs.

Now when looking at the UK system, the jury as a whole is entirely random, there is no option on voir dire and therefore you get 12 nobodys walking into the jury box. If you assume that one person is automatically biased in favour of one angle then presumably you have to assume that another juror is equally biased in the opposite direction. Therefore, going back to my 1 & 2, you can perhaps assume that an individual juror is biased but that the jury as a whole is unbiased (due to the individual members cancelling out).
 
I can better accept completely random juries when it is more often acceptable to allow a 10-2 vote being accepted (rather than a hung jury), which does happen more often in the UK than the US.

When it only takes 1 person to make a trial end in a 'hung jury', then I don't see why you would want to not question the jurors to some extent.

And BOTH the defendent and the prosecutor get to ask questions and decide who they don't want, so they are all people that both sides agree with.
 
Fortunately, there were no obstinate or intolerant people on my jury. Otherwise we likely would have deadlocked given how the consensus swung 180 degrees in the deliberation room. But equally as important is that if you truly think one way while everybody else thinks the opposite, you should not be swayed by the mob to change your mind on that basis alone. That was one of the points they made during voir dire.

Also, in Florida the judge is apparently an active menber of the selection process. He apparently got his say as much as the attorneys did.
 
I can better accept completely random juries when it is more often acceptable to allow a 10-2 vote being accepted (rather than a hung jury), which does happen more often in the UK than the US.

When it only takes 1 person to make a trial end in a 'hung jury', then I don't see why you would want to not question the jurors to some extent.

And BOTH the defendent and the prosecutor get to ask questions and decide who they don't want, so they are all people that both sides agree with.

I think these days all trials end up being allowed a majority verdict after 2 hours of deliberation. I'm not sure if it is a good thing, you're meant to prove 'beyond reasonable doubt' which is arguably be between 90-99%. However, if two people on the jury are disagreeing that has already slipped to 84%...
 
Juries are ********, ujurors are ********,and most people wrth their salt will refuse the summons or give shoddy excuses.

As onje of the UK's bes legal minds commented a few years back:

"jury service is seen as a burden only those too stupid or incapable are unable to avoid"

We have juries in Norway too, but many want to abolish them, because of more or less the same reasons as you give.
 
My uncle is of the opinion that jury duty is the last form of legal slavery, ever since he was called up for duty, getting paid about £100 (I think) a day to go to court, whilst having to pay about £1000 a day to hire a locum to do his job. This continued for about 3 days, and he was never actually on a jury...just sitting around waiting to be put on one the whole time.
 
One of the hardest aspects of being a juror is to not be able to discuss anything with anybody until you retire for deliberation. During the testimony, I found myself wising I could interrupt and say "Hey! Wait a minute here! What about this! And this! Please explain all thse apparent inconsistencies which we are hearing. But you can't. All you can do is try to take a note or two. And this particular judge would also allow us to ask quesitons after all the testimony. But most of the time, the questions came later on, and the person you could ask was the wrong person.
This is something I found really frustrating too. I also found that having a good chairman of the jury is really important, organising the discussions allowing people ways of clarifying their thoughts, otherwise as you found it is very easy to just argue around and not get anywhere.
 
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