Keystone Pipeline

I very much do support that.

Ah, well then, carry on I suppose.

In the interest of full disclosure, I should say I'm strongly opposed to any expansion of the sector, based on GHG concerns. The one exception would be if we could develop home grown refining capability.

I also think we really need to reform the royalty rates the oil companies pay. The wider population of Alberta enjoys almost none of the wealth extracted from the ground, with the payouts going mostly to those directly employed by the industry, and foreign investors. It's a very broken state, seeing as the oil is collectively owned.
 
Makes you a bit envious of Norway, no?
 
I get that in the end, this oil pipeline might actually be reasonably environmentally friendly, or not dangerous, or whatever, but isn't it still quite reasonable to say 'no' in lieu of this going through a process whereby the minimisation of risk is assured? You can't just do away with an environmental assessment because the chances are things will be okay.

I find it hard to see this as just a politically-motivated decision by Obama. Sure, it might seem to boost Obama's environmental credentials to appeal to some sectors who would be in no danger of voting GOP later in the year anyway, but it's a fairly easily attackable decision for a lot of people too, and surely would not really go over all that well with centrist/indepedent voters. If it's not politically motivated, then I'm more inclined to think that the stated reason for the pipeline not being approved is accurate, and that reason seems perfectly acceptable to me.
 
*snip what History_Buff said*
When I realized this is when I changed my mind. If it was coming to the US, then I would support it wholeheartedly. But it's not, so screw it. Obama did us right by this.
I'm of the same mind. I've literally only been following this on CivOffTopic, so take that for what it's worth, but if 1) it's not going to benefit the US directly, & 2) hrmm... how do I put this... if we're just shipping a hazard all the way through our country, from top to bottom, in order to get it to a port city where it can be exported to other countries... then what's the upside?

Jobs? Yeah, I guess. But temporary ones 'til it's done & then what? This sounds like a snowjob where we build a pipeline to carry hazardous oil-sand through our country, which Canada gets to sell to other countries via a port in our country. What am I missing here?

Seriously. Not, like faux-ironically. Other than the jobs to build the initial pipeline, jobs that go away once it's built (which can be the answer, of course) what's the long-term benefit here? The oil still goes on the open market, right? Otherwise, why the effort to get it to port city?
 
OK... still not so sure here... but I can be convinced, with stats.

The oil goes to the refinery in TX... surely a good amount will be sold to the states... and some will be exported...

Versus, importing it from the ME, to then do the same thing.

I mean, if we are shipping it to TX from the ME, to then just sell it all abroad, that is insanity. It defies logic... I figured most of the oil that comes to TX is then refined (because it is crude, what have you) and then transported, mainly by truck, within the USA...

Is this really what is happening? It's mainly be shipped out again?
I wouldn't be fully surprised, there is a lot of insanity going on in this world...

Either way, it is still less transport of oil... because the shipment from Canadia is closer than the shipment from the ME... but I want to know if this system is that messed up.

Sources please.
 
The oil goes to the refinery in TX... surely a good amount will be sold to the states... and some will be exported...
No, that's the thing. It literally all goes on the global market. Where people lke OPEC control it, & decide what to sell it for. Even the oil produced here in the states has to deal with that. Nothing we produce has to be sold to us. It all goes to OPEC (& others like them - there is no American OPEC).

Versus, importing it from the ME, to then do the same thing.
The ME stuff does the same thing, it's just that they *ARE* OPEC. All our oil goes on the International Market, & this sand-oil would, too. Otherwise, like I said, why the effort to ship it to a port? If we would get to use it internally, why the effort to ship to a port city? Why not just ship it 1 mile across the border, & refine it there & ship to our states?

They are pipelining it to one of our coastal cities so they can ship it overseas. And sell it on the international market, like all other oil is.

I mean, if we are shipping it to TX from the ME, to then just sell it all abroad, that is insanity. It defies logic... I figured most of the oil that comes to TX is then refined (because it is crude, what have you) and then transported, mainly by truck, within the USA...
Exactly. Why doesn't this happen? Because it all goes on the global market. It doesn't matter where it comes from, only who it goes to. It doesn't defy logic (well, it kinda does, just not real world logic). We're shipping all of it, literally all of it, overseas. And then they sell it back to us. It's crazy, but that's why why this whole "we should use our own oil" thing is just a complete misundersanding of how things work. We don't have our own oil. It *all* goes on the international market. And then we buy it from there.

If we could actually use the oil we produce without selling it on the global market first, that'd be awesome. But we couldn't produce enough for our use. So we'd still have to buy some from the global market. And that's where they've got us. As long as we have to buy some from them, they've got us over a barrel (heh). If we were all like "we're backing out & keeping our 20% of oil & using it ourselves, haha!", they'd be like "ok, fine, but now we won't sell you the other 30% you need to run your crap, haha! or... maybe we will, but it'll cost you triple, haha?"

Is this really what is happening? It's mainly be shipped out again?
It is. It all is. No matter where it comes from. There's the problem. There's no such thing as "American Oil" - it's all "Global Oil", even the American Oil.
 
Source me and I'm sold...

I'll try. Gimme a few minutes - I'll edit this post. I just spent like 45+ minutes Googling this stuff myself to find out & reading up on it, so I'll try to post the relevant stuff I found.

basic OPEC info on wikipedia man, I'm glad Wikipedia isn't blacked out

where we get our oil from OPEC countries are only like a third, I was surprised, but still foreign countries.

shows the Top 10 largest world oil companies by reserves and production we aren't on the list; Iraq is #4, Kuwait's on there twice - did not know that an hour ago

If We Drill in the U.S., We Don't Get the Oil I don't know anything about this site, but like I said, I just started Googling this.

says we can't know where our oil comes from "The United States and many other countries in the world consume more refined products (i.e., gasoline, diesel, heating oil, and jet fuel) than can be produced without using crude oil that is imported from other countries. At the same time, certain countries export more crude oil than they consume. When crude oil supplies from one country/source drop off, world oil demand is still met but with a different mix of crude oil supplies. When the overall supply of crude oil decreases, the world market “tightens” and prices usually rise."


Is that enough? I mean, I mostly found this stuff by Googling things like "US oil global markets", "OPEC US oil", "US foreign oil", so I guess I could be off, but how do you interpret all that? I'm open to other articles, but I started not knowing much other than what I'd read here, & I don't see how else to read that.

There honestly aren't any "dissenting opinion" articles. We just don't produce enough to sustain ourselves, & we never could, so as long as we have to buy overseas, we have to play by their rules. Otherwise, they just cut us off or jack up the prices if we try to keep "our" oil to ouselves.
 
Again, what is being discussed here is the transport cost, NOT THE COMMODITY COST. And when we say transport cost we are including in that enviromental damage from energy expended to do this, and the risk of enviromental catastrophy due to time and method of transport.

Even with exporting after refining, this still makes sense on both those counts.
 
Again, what is being discussed here is the transport cost, NOT THE COMMODITY COST. And when we say transport cost we are including in that enviromental damage from energy expended to do this, and the risk of enviromental catastrophy due to time and method of transport.

Even with exporting after refining, this still makes sense on both those counts.

There is something you're missing about this pipeline though Pat. The oil transported through it wasn't coming to us for direct use, the terms of the proposed contract were to permit them to sell almost all of it from our ports to other countries. The point of the pipeline wasn't to supply America, it was to get Trans Canada a decent American port to sell from that was near to refineries.

If it was for our use, then I would be all for it. Like I said before, its supposed to move a volume equal to what we get from Saudi Arabia. But it's not coming to us, to potentially make us independent of the Saudis, they were going to dump it into the world market and then sell it back to us again. That's a pretty crappy deal for us having let them ship it through our country and then refine it for them.
 
If the pipeline is built the crude oil arrives at the Texas coast it can be pumped into an oil refiberry or into a tanker and exported. What happens to it will depend on the price (unless the US passes a law to prevent oil exports) and the capacity of the US refineries. OPEC can influence the price of oil on the world market by changing production but its inflence has decreased since the 70s.

from Oil and Gas Journal

US crude oil production rose 2.5% year-to-year in 2011 to an average 5.6 million b/d as petroleum product demand fell 1.2% to 18.9 million b/d, the American Petroleum Institute reported. Crude and petroleum product imports dropped 5.6% from their 2010 average to 11.1 million b/d, while product exports grew 25.5% to an average 3 million b/d, API said in its yearend statistics.

http://www.ogj.com/articles/2012/01/api-reports-oil-production-up-product-demand-down-in-2011.html

Added

Tankers will not arrive in Texas unload crude from the ME and load crude from Canada unless the refineries can not use the Canadian crude. If there are problems with using the canadian crude the Texan refineries will be altered so that it can be used.
 
I knew nothing about this issue before reading this thread and, wow, I don't think I've seen so many people switch sides so quickly in such a heated discussion! :eek:
 
I knew nothing about this issue before reading this thread and, wow, I don't think I've seen so many people switch sides so quickly in such a heated discussion! :eek:

Yea, I'm still a little dizzy from it myself.

The jobs numbers havn't been debated that much though in this thread. If it's only a few thousand, that's a drop in the bucket and there is a serious manipulation of numbers going on right now. My dad was saying something ridiculous like 400,000. The popular perception is (or will be) that this pipeline was going to be some massive job creator and Obama killed it to save the rainforests or whatever.
 
I knew nothing about this issue before reading this thread and, wow, I don't think I've seen so many people switch sides so quickly in such a heated discussion! :eek:

Same

It's like bizarro-CFC
 
There is something you're missing about this pipeline though Pat. The oil transported through it wasn't coming to us for direct use, the terms of the proposed contract were to permit them to sell almost all of it from our ports to other countries

There is a bit of hyperbole going on here. The agreement does not mean the oil is not going to the American market, it means it is not required to go to the American market. If I were Canada making sure this is the case is just common sense.

The fact is the portion of this oil actually staying in the US is going to fluctuate, but right now Canadian oil all has to be shipped via tanker to a refineries and then shipped again to final users. Even if they ship this oil from the Gulf to India we have still removed a hell of a lot of transport cost/risk from one leg of that journey.

Of course all that refined oil is not going to leave the US, and a good portion of it is probably destined for Central/South America, so its still a leg up on transporting from the Middle East.

Is that as good a result as just keeping every drop in the US in an enviromental sense? No, but I don't think I or anyone every simplified it to that degree, just that it increases local access and that is a good thing.

Also remember that one of the big problems with Canadian oil is right now it all goes from the out to West Coast ports. That means its cheaper to ship it to Japan/Korea/China through the Pacific than shipping it the the Central America, through Panama, then back to the US East Coast. Huge portions of the US market are effectively cut off from Canadian supply. This would change that.

The point of the pipeline wasn't to supply America, it was to get Trans Canada a decent American port to sell from that was near to refineries.

Again, that cuts out one of the logistics nightmares of current Canadian oil economics, it needs to be shipped so many thousands of miles to a refinery, then so many thousands of miles to a customer. Now that process has been streamlined, avoiding risky tankers for half of it and removing half the transport journey outright.

Again, still a win.

If it was for our use, then I would be all for it. Like I said before, its supposed to move a volume equal to what we get from Saudi Arabia. But it's not coming to us, to potentially make us independent of the Saudis, they were going to dump it into the world market and then sell it back to us again.

There isn't some central nexus of oil everyone ships their oil to and then they farm it out from there. The process is far more complicated as that. Sometimes they store vast quantities locally, sometimes refinery hubs stockpile it as it arrives there, sometimes custermers have made long term contracts that require them to source their supply from places that seem odd looking at current market prices. My favorite is when expected customers don't buy supply already sent there and tankers sit anchored off places like Jebel Ali and Singapore for sometimes years because it isn't worth it to ship that oil anywhere else. That sort of thing will all take years to settle out (I believe companies like airlines lock in fuel at up to ten years at a time)

That's a pretty crappy deal for us having let them ship it through our country and then refine it for them.

Only if you are considering #2/#3/#4. Nobody says the US can't buy that oil, its pretty obvious why we won't be doing so entirely off the bat (legacy pricing/contracts).

So I guesst the question is, what do we need to do to get that oil to stay in the US?

To be clear, I see where the advatage erodes as more of that oil leaves North America, but an eroded advatage is still an advantage.
 
I once supported the XL pipeline, but the more I learn about it, the more worrisome it becomes. From TransCanada’s Permit Application:
Existing markets for Canadian heavy crude, principally PADD II [the Midwest], are currently oversupplied, resulting in price discounting for Canadian heavy crude oil. Access to the USGC [U.S. Gulf Coast] via the Keystone XL Pipeline is expected to strengthen Canadian crude oil pricing in PADD II by removing this oversupply. This is expected to increase the price of heavy crude to the equivalent cost of imported crude. The resultant increase in the price of heavy crude is estimated to provide an increase in annual revenue to the Canadian producing industry in 2013 of US $2 billion to US $3.9 billion.
So the oil company itself was admitting that the pipeline was designed to boost profits at the expense of Midwestern refineries and American consumers. No thanks, let's keep the cheap oil in America, for Americans.
 
You can see why the Canadians want access to the international markets. The main question is where the refining jobs are going to be, and both sides would be nuts to snub their noses at those jobs. Refining jobs are well-paying and nicely stable. In return is the local environmental degradation.

But, there's nothing wrong with Canadian oil being burnt elsewhere.

The Europeans are much better at turning oil into money, which is then spent on luxury, progress, and human well-being. It's not a surprise we'd like to sell to them!
http://yearbook.enerdata.net/2009/CO2-intensity-by-region.html
 
I once supported the XL pipeline, but the more I learn about it, the more worrisome it becomes. From TransCanada’s Permit Application:

So the oil company itself was admitting that the pipeline was designed to boost profits at the expense of Midwestern refineries and American consumers. No thanks, let's keep the cheap oil in America, for Americans.

If the US decides to restrict the market for Canadian oil by stopping its supply to the southern US then the Canadians will build a pipeline to the coast so they can get world prices.
 
You can see why the Canadians want access to the international markets. The main question is where the refining jobs are going to be, and both sides would be nuts to snub their noses at those jobs. Refining jobs are well-paying and nicely stable. In return is the local environmental degradation.

But, there's nothing wrong with Canadian oil being burnt elsewhere.

The Europeans are much better at turning oil into money, which is then spent on luxury, progress, and human well-being. It's not a surprise we'd like to sell to them!
http://yearbook.enerdata.net/2009/CO2-intensity-by-region.html


In the long run that's not really true. Oil is one day going to be in too short of supply for a motor vehicle fuel except at unacceptably high costs. As that time approaches, the exporters of oil are going to get an ever larger transfer of wealth from the importers. So from a long term perspective it would be better to save the oil for later when the price is higher. I don't know Canada's long term supply situation, but the fact that Canada is extracting high cost oil from sands suggests that the long term supply isn't that great.

Better to let other nations run out first. Whoever has the last oil will get the most benefit.

And maybe in that time the tech will improve enough so that the extraction isn't so environmentally destructive. Not to mention energy intensive, which cuts much of the new benefit out of the system.
 
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