Immaculate
unerring
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OOC: Grandkhan: Just laws or actions too? Things like raising new legions to go fight Caesar?
KhaNESII: S.P.Q.R
- Thread starter Grandkhan
- Start date
Ekolite
Deity
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OOC: What I mean to say is that we need a document detailing what is ''legal'' and what is ''illegal'' within the context of the game, something that says what powers the Governors/Generals have, how much freedom they have to act independently or how much they are subject to regulation from the Consuls and/or Senate. For example, some people would say that the redistribution that Erez has been doing in his province is illegal because the Senate had previously voted against the Grachii Reforms, but do Senate rulings apply locally or only on a Republic-wide basis? Does a Governor have freedom to expand their province into the barbarian hinterland at will, or do all military operations need to be sanctioned by the Consuls. What has a higher legal authority, the Bills, the Senate Laws, or the local laws enforced by the Governors?
Other more civilian level breaches of law are perhaps more clear cut, but right now a lot of things are quite ambiguous Constitutionally speaking. These are the issues I would particularly want such an office to be able to address.
Other more civilian level breaches of law are perhaps more clear cut, but right now a lot of things are quite ambiguous Constitutionally speaking. These are the issues I would particularly want such an office to be able to address.
Immaculate
unerring
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Maybe Grandkhan could draw those up? If only in the broad strokes?
Grandkhan
Telvanni Master Wizard
@Ekolite: That kind of thing would be done by laws, I'd imagine. Its not the kind of thing that could be done by Bill.
@Immaculate: Laws are proposed and voted on, and the law may say 'Raise an army to fight Caesar'. If it passes, then it is a formal (In characterly binding, though OOC it isn't) recommendation from the Senate for the Consuls do this in Bills.
EDIT: Nah, thats your job. I wrote the rules to not have any limitations on what you do with your army - any limitations are going to have to come from the Senate, and won't be binding OOC.
@Immaculate: Laws are proposed and voted on, and the law may say 'Raise an army to fight Caesar'. If it passes, then it is a formal (In characterly binding, though OOC it isn't) recommendation from the Senate for the Consuls do this in Bills.
EDIT: Nah, thats your job. I wrote the rules to not have any limitations on what you do with your army - any limitations are going to have to come from the Senate, and won't be binding OOC.
Immaculate
unerring
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Albanus Quiris Cato proposes the following 'laws':
1.2.1: Initiate the office of the Praetor Parricidii (with choice of who to fill that office to be made by consuls in agreement after the bill passes if it does)- voting 'aye' does not signify that i would automatically fill that that office- the choice would be the consuls.
1.2.2: Initiate legal proceedings to capture and try the mob who killed the rebel patricians under the direction of the local governor Consul Tiberius Tertinius Pachomius.
1.2.3: Initiate legal proceedings to try the defecting legionaires. They should not just be offered early retirement for their trechery. I consider myself an EXTREMELY devoted supporter of our soldiers and am PROUD to have served in Rome's military but we cannot allow this sort of defection to be ignored. I don't call for their heads- merely for our laws and traditions to serve the function they are meant to.
1.2.4: Raise new legions to capture and try the rebel senator Gaius Caesar (to be commanded by a senator appointed by the Consuls)
1.2.5: Raise new legions to be placed under the command of a general appointed by the consuls to pacify Transalpine Gaul. The commander would have the specific duty to establish a position of strength and establish a peace treaty if possible- but only from a position of strength so that our international reputation does not make us look weak.
1.2.6: Recall the legionnaires in Helena to Italia and Sicilia to pacify the plebs. (Under the command of the local governors) I recall this proposal in light of the wisdom of my fellow senators.
1.2.7: Accept Marcus Titus Scipio's offer to return to Rome so as to make it very clear that he is loyal to the senate. Appoint a new commander to assist in the battle with the central Gaillic confederation and command of the 1st. I recommend reappointing Marcus Titus Scipio in another theater - he has proven himself an able commander and we have need of them in the field. The final decision would be that of the consuls.
1.2.8: Invest the governor of HIspania with the formal powers of an Envoy of Rome and have him meet with the Celtiben and Vascones to engender local diplomatic support and to prevent opportunism from these tribes while we deal with Transalpine Gaul and Gaius Caesar. (point edited in light of fellow senators wise arguments)
1.2.1: Initiate the office of the Praetor Parricidii (with choice of who to fill that office to be made by consuls in agreement after the bill passes if it does)- voting 'aye' does not signify that i would automatically fill that that office- the choice would be the consuls.
1.2.2: Initiate legal proceedings to capture and try the mob who killed the rebel patricians under the direction of the local governor Consul Tiberius Tertinius Pachomius.
1.2.3: Initiate legal proceedings to try the defecting legionaires. They should not just be offered early retirement for their trechery. I consider myself an EXTREMELY devoted supporter of our soldiers and am PROUD to have served in Rome's military but we cannot allow this sort of defection to be ignored. I don't call for their heads- merely for our laws and traditions to serve the function they are meant to.
1.2.4: Raise new legions to capture and try the rebel senator Gaius Caesar (to be commanded by a senator appointed by the Consuls)
1.2.5: Raise new legions to be placed under the command of a general appointed by the consuls to pacify Transalpine Gaul. The commander would have the specific duty to establish a position of strength and establish a peace treaty if possible- but only from a position of strength so that our international reputation does not make us look weak.
1.2.7: Accept Marcus Titus Scipio's offer to return to Rome so as to make it very clear that he is loyal to the senate. Appoint a new commander to assist in the battle with the central Gaillic confederation and command of the 1st. I recommend reappointing Marcus Titus Scipio in another theater - he has proven himself an able commander and we have need of them in the field. The final decision would be that of the consuls.
1.2.8: Invest the governor of HIspania with the formal powers of an Envoy of Rome and have him meet with the Celtiben and Vascones to engender local diplomatic support and to prevent opportunism from these tribes while we deal with Transalpine Gaul and Gaius Caesar. (point edited in light of fellow senators wise arguments)
Grandkhan
Telvanni Master Wizard
Oh yeah, format is 1.3.x
1st Consular Term.
3rd Year within the Consular Term.
xth law proposed.
Sorry, should have made that clear.
1st Consular Term.
3rd Year within the Consular Term.
xth law proposed.
Sorry, should have made that clear.
theDright
King
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"Servius Aemilius Celsus Arrianus will speak."
"I am still considering this proposed legislation."
"Absolutely, although I believe that the jurisdiction of this is under the Governor of Italia. A formal demand of the Senate would be useful though."
"I don't call for their heads either. Legion deserters are crucified, not beheaded."
"This situation depends upon where he flees to. The man is crazy. I would be in favor of offering amnesty in return for his resignation as Governor of Gallia Transalpina and two-and-a-half years banishment from Roma and all Provinces.
"I would prefer to reinforce the 2 Legions already in place."
"This seems to contradict the earlier law encouraging action on the part of the Governor of Italia."
"I approve."
"As Governor of Hispania, I am more than capable of performing these actions. Border security of my province should be my purview. I welcome either a Legion to secure the defense of this province, or Senators willing to assist myself in providing security."
"I am still considering this proposed legislation."
"Absolutely, although I believe that the jurisdiction of this is under the Governor of Italia. A formal demand of the Senate would be useful though."
"I don't call for their heads either. Legion deserters are crucified, not beheaded."
"This situation depends upon where he flees to. The man is crazy. I would be in favor of offering amnesty in return for his resignation as Governor of Gallia Transalpina and two-and-a-half years banishment from Roma and all Provinces.
"I would prefer to reinforce the 2 Legions already in place."
"This seems to contradict the earlier law encouraging action on the part of the Governor of Italia."
"I approve."
"As Governor of Hispania, I am more than capable of performing these actions. Border security of my province should be my purview. I welcome either a Legion to secure the defense of this province, or Senators willing to assist myself in providing security."
talonschild
Drive-By NESer
Cassiodor
Viz. the law about recalling the Hellenic Legion - I must protest. I command 700 men, with no way to reinforce whatever for at least the next year and a half. If the Republic does not wish to rely on blind faith that our sworn enemy Mithradates not to invade, we must have a legion in Anatolia or the next province over.
On the topic of raising more legions, or reinforcing them - it seems to me that we don't need bigger legions so much as more legions. I would support the creation of a Legio VI, to be created by drawing troops from with perhaps 300 raised to join them. In fact, I agree heartily with the creation of a Legio VI. In a year or two perhapes we might create a Legio VII.
On the topic of the deserters, I think Marcus Scipio found a very creative solution to deal with him peacefully. I would discourage such deal-making in future (and encourage more precise orders), but I will not support the dragging of these soldiers to crosses. I would like it to be known that Rome is as good as her word.
With regard to the Celts bordering Hispania, I think Hispania's governor could handle the situation - unless the Senate feels it unwise to delegate authority?
Now, the Praetor Parricidii - it seems useless to me. Needless complexity. Questions of legality can be settled in the present fashion - by Senatorial vote.
Lastly, Caesar. Bring him home, or bring him would have called only for his return to Rome, but his declaration of rebellion complicates things somewhat. Send one of our legions in Gallia Transalpina for him.
Viz. the law about recalling the Hellenic Legion - I must protest. I command 700 men, with no way to reinforce whatever for at least the next year and a half. If the Republic does not wish to rely on blind faith that our sworn enemy Mithradates not to invade, we must have a legion in Anatolia or the next province over.
On the topic of raising more legions, or reinforcing them - it seems to me that we don't need bigger legions so much as more legions. I would support the creation of a Legio VI, to be created by drawing troops from with perhaps 300 raised to join them. In fact, I agree heartily with the creation of a Legio VI. In a year or two perhapes we might create a Legio VII.
On the topic of the deserters, I think Marcus Scipio found a very creative solution to deal with him peacefully. I would discourage such deal-making in future (and encourage more precise orders), but I will not support the dragging of these soldiers to crosses. I would like it to be known that Rome is as good as her word.
With regard to the Celts bordering Hispania, I think Hispania's governor could handle the situation - unless the Senate feels it unwise to delegate authority?
Now, the Praetor Parricidii - it seems useless to me. Needless complexity. Questions of legality can be settled in the present fashion - by Senatorial vote.
Lastly, Caesar. Bring him home, or bring him would have called only for his return to Rome, but his declaration of rebellion complicates things somewhat. Send one of our legions in Gallia Transalpina for him.
talonschild
Drive-By NESer
Law proposals:
1.3.9: Any war started without the prior express permission of the Senate/Consuls will be deemed illegal.
1.3.10: The one responsible for beginning an illegal war will fund the replacement of lost legionnaires, and the costs (if any) of peace. Naturally, if peace is secured with a payment to us, the payment goes to the coffers of Rome, not to the private treasury of the warmonger.
1.3.11: Illegal wars may be retroactively legalized if the Senate so desires.
1.3.9: Any war started without the prior express permission of the Senate/Consuls will be deemed illegal.
1.3.10: The one responsible for beginning an illegal war will fund the replacement of lost legionnaires, and the costs (if any) of peace. Naturally, if peace is secured with a payment to us, the payment goes to the coffers of Rome, not to the private treasury of the warmonger.
1.3.11: Illegal wars may be retroactively legalized if the Senate so desires.
Grandkhan
Telvanni Master Wizard
Editted the OP to account for Caesar's Rebellion. As he was governor, the Transalpina is now a Province in Rebellion and so it doesn't give funds to the Republic this turn.
It is, technically, a Rebel State and must be recaptured before it is available for the Republic to use.
Also to clarify, laws should be formatted 1.3.x, not 1.2.x for this turn.
It is, technically, a Rebel State and must be recaptured before it is available for the Republic to use.
Also to clarify, laws should be formatted 1.3.x, not 1.2.x for this turn.
Immaculate
unerring
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I would amend that we
"invest Servius Aemilius Celsus Arrianus with the formal powers of an envoy of Rome to negotiate with the Celtiben and Vascones"
Additionally Cassidor makes a very good point and i will not have my proposal responsible for our being targetted by opportunistic neighbors. Yes- let us keep the Vth where it is and raise a VI legion.
I will ammend my proposals.
"invest Servius Aemilius Celsus Arrianus with the formal powers of an envoy of Rome to negotiate with the Celtiben and Vascones"
Additionally Cassidor makes a very good point and i will not have my proposal responsible for our being targetted by opportunistic neighbors. Yes- let us keep the Vth where it is and raise a VI legion.
I will ammend my proposals.
Ekolite
Deity
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- Sep 15, 2007
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Consul Bruscius to the Senate
There is no need to legislate regarding the subject of legal and illegal wars. The Consuls have discussed the matter at great length and it the issue will be clarified in the coming Bill, including punishments for offenders. To make things clear, I am also completely against legislating for what the General must do/not do ''in the case of an illegal war'', making provisions for such an event gives it a sense of respectability, an idea that it is illegal, but basically fine so long as I pay the financial cost myself. Illegal wars will not be tolerated in the future for so long as I am a Consul.
Also I ask that all proposed laws are specific and unambiguous so as to prevent future confusion.
There is no need to legislate regarding the subject of legal and illegal wars. The Consuls have discussed the matter at great length and it the issue will be clarified in the coming Bill, including punishments for offenders. To make things clear, I am also completely against legislating for what the General must do/not do ''in the case of an illegal war'', making provisions for such an event gives it a sense of respectability, an idea that it is illegal, but basically fine so long as I pay the financial cost myself. Illegal wars will not be tolerated in the future for so long as I am a Consul.
Also I ask that all proposed laws are specific and unambiguous so as to prevent future confusion.
thomas.berubeg
Wandering the World
A messenger from the field:
Friends, I have been keeping abreast of the political affairs of Rome, and, while I am not able to vote on the proceedings, I would like to offer my endorsement for Marcus Titus Scipio as commander of the forces sent to deal with the Fiendish Rebel Caesar.
talonschild
Drive-By NESer
To respond to Consul Bruscius - Proposal 1.3.10 was not a be-all-end-all punishment. It was a baseline minimum. The whole of 1.3.9, 1.3.10, and 1.3.11 were intended to begin codifying our policies - specifically, the ones on the powers of Generalship.
And given the prohibitive cost of legionnaires, I think cost alone a very good deterrent - until we get higher-paid generals, at any rate.
And given the prohibitive cost of legionnaires, I think cost alone a very good deterrent - until we get higher-paid generals, at any rate.
Terrance888
Discord Reigns
Vibius Plotius Agatopus
Proposes a Law for Sake of Debate
I propose this law for the purpose of debate and consideration by the Senate and so will personally abstain.
If this passes, it means that those that declare themselves in Rebellion have basically forfeited their place under Roman Law until they renounce their rebellion and seek justice in hopes their renunciation is accepted by the Senate. Their movements should be notified by the good citizens of the Republic to loyalist forces, and those with influence should attempt to mount efforts to capture and/or kill the Rebel. This, if applied retroactively, might be construed to justify the mob killing of the Patricians. This can also be construed to apply to Consul Tiberius Tertinius Pachomius' handling of the Italian Rebellions; Lower your Arms or Forfeit your life.
If this fails, it means that the Government Alone is responsible for brining Rebels to justice, and that vigilante groups are to be avoided. Volunteered aid is accepted but is not a civic duty. This lasts until other laws are passed concerning this topic.
Discusses the Proposed Praetor Parricidii
OOCprologue: I'm not even sure if there is a separate Judicial system, or if the Senate is the Judicial System. I got rid of everything past this, but I didn't want to delete it outright.
Proposes a Law for Sake of Debate
I propose this law for the purpose of debate and consideration by the Senate and so will personally abstain.
If this passes, it means that those that declare themselves in Rebellion have basically forfeited their place under Roman Law until they renounce their rebellion and seek justice in hopes their renunciation is accepted by the Senate. Their movements should be notified by the good citizens of the Republic to loyalist forces, and those with influence should attempt to mount efforts to capture and/or kill the Rebel. This, if applied retroactively, might be construed to justify the mob killing of the Patricians. This can also be construed to apply to Consul Tiberius Tertinius Pachomius' handling of the Italian Rebellions; Lower your Arms or Forfeit your life.
If this fails, it means that the Government Alone is responsible for brining Rebels to justice, and that vigilante groups are to be avoided. Volunteered aid is accepted but is not a civic duty. This lasts until other laws are passed concerning this topic.
Discusses the Proposed Praetor Parricidii
OOCprologue: I'm not even sure if there is a separate Judicial system, or if the Senate is the Judicial System. I got rid of everything past this, but I didn't want to delete it outright.
Spoiler :
Grandkhan
Telvanni Master Wizard
The Senate is the judicial system for the purposes of constitutional law and the prosecution of Senators. There is no separation of powers in Rome.
The formation of a Praetor Parricidii sort of creates a semi-independent judicial body who's job is independently decide whether something is legal or not - for example the case of Protacius invading Gaul without prior authorisation, or erez87 instituting provincial reforms which were defeated in the Senate - even though technically he never really had to take it to the Senate anyway.
It'd go a long way towards codifying the Laws you make properly and establishing a precedent for how to deal with ambiguous legal acts. Whether thats a good thing is, of course, up to you and how you vote.
re: delays. The NES wasn't delayed by people choosing a Prosecutor and Lawyer, it was delayed by me explaining to christos exactly why he had to publicly declare himself in Rebellion right now as opposed to just running off.
The formation of a Praetor Parricidii sort of creates a semi-independent judicial body who's job is independently decide whether something is legal or not - for example the case of Protacius invading Gaul without prior authorisation, or erez87 instituting provincial reforms which were defeated in the Senate - even though technically he never really had to take it to the Senate anyway.
It'd go a long way towards codifying the Laws you make properly and establishing a precedent for how to deal with ambiguous legal acts. Whether thats a good thing is, of course, up to you and how you vote.
re: delays. The NES wasn't delayed by people choosing a Prosecutor and Lawyer, it was delayed by me explaining to christos exactly why he had to publicly declare himself in Rebellion right now as opposed to just running off.
Immaculate
unerring
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which was what?
Eltain
Deity
I am a bit confused there as well.
Grandkhan
Telvanni Master Wizard
There are two ways to declare yourself In Rebellion.
The first is to do it secretly in your Orders. So, for example, you want to attack people by surprise you can just do whatever and then in your orders and then, write in your orders, 'Declare myself in Rebellion, and then march on Rome with my army.' That way you can surprise people.
The second is done by publically declaring yourself in Rebellion in the thread.
Christos wanted to declare rebellion secretly, but because the NES is in Trial Mode, you can't do orders until the Trial is over. The trial isn't over until we either have found the defendant guilty or innocent, or the defendant basically just ups and runs by declaring a Rebellion publicly. But if you wait for a conviction, you could be found guilty and then be automatically stripped of everything you own, because that happens automatically on being found guilty. After that, if you want to declare rebellion secretly you'll be doing it with no resources whatsoever.
Its a quirk of the game mechanics I set up which means that if you're about to be put on trial and you're sure you're going to be found guilty, you're better off just cutting and running before a verdict is passed. I kind of like it, frankly.
Declaring a rebellion in Orders is pretty powerful, and its what you'd want to do basically 99% of the time, but there are some cases where its impossible
The first is to do it secretly in your Orders. So, for example, you want to attack people by surprise you can just do whatever and then in your orders and then, write in your orders, 'Declare myself in Rebellion, and then march on Rome with my army.' That way you can surprise people.
The second is done by publically declaring yourself in Rebellion in the thread.
Christos wanted to declare rebellion secretly, but because the NES is in Trial Mode, you can't do orders until the Trial is over. The trial isn't over until we either have found the defendant guilty or innocent, or the defendant basically just ups and runs by declaring a Rebellion publicly. But if you wait for a conviction, you could be found guilty and then be automatically stripped of everything you own, because that happens automatically on being found guilty. After that, if you want to declare rebellion secretly you'll be doing it with no resources whatsoever.
Its a quirk of the game mechanics I set up which means that if you're about to be put on trial and you're sure you're going to be found guilty, you're better off just cutting and running before a verdict is passed. I kind of like it, frankly.
Declaring a rebellion in Orders is pretty powerful, and its what you'd want to do basically 99% of the time, but there are some cases where its impossible
