KhaNESII: S.P.Q.R

[Grandkhan]

Ok, on the Gracchi reforms.

When they were passed by the Grachi brothers, there was a massive problem with really large Patrician families basically monopolising the arable land in the Republic. Basically, these really wealthy Patricians had plantations run largely by slaves, and kept on buying up the land from the smallholders.

They had the money to do this, because their plantations were absolutely huge and they could afford to sell their grain cheaper thanks to economies of scale, so they were pushing the smallholders out of the market as well, and when they were forced to pack up shop, the Patricians came and bought the land off them.

As a result, you ended up with a Patrician class which was owning basically all the land and the smallholders were basically forced off the land to starve or move to the cities. The Gracchi saw this and placed a hard limit on the amount of land a single person could work, (500 ha, I think, with some extra for their sons? I can't remember the details) creating space for smallholders to exist and grow grain.

Reinstating the Gracchi reforms would once again place a hard limit on how much land a single person can own, forcing the Patricians to give it up cheap to the smallholding Plebeians.

I can't tell you the results though, but I can tell you that every option ticks somebody off. The question is, who do you want to tick off the least?

Also, theDright's character is now known as Servius Arrius Celsus Arrianus. Please note this accordingly

 

[talonschild]

OOC: Thank you, DC, that makes far more sense. For reference, the list of players, full names, and short names I'm using at present:

talonschild: Cassiodor (Placidus Aurelius Cassiodorus)
erez87: Tiberius (Tiberius Tertinius Pachomius)
Eltain: Marsicus (Gnaeus Oppius Marsicus)
Nintz: Cassius (Cassius Flavinus Livius)
Popcornlord: Aulus (Aulus Mucia Laetonius)
SamSniped: Viator (Marcus Argetius Viator)
DC123456789: Ulpianus (Servius Licinius Ulpianus)
momo1000: Titus (Titus Lucretius Longus)
germanicus12: Marcus (Marcus Cornelius Scipio)
Seon: Rufus (Rufus Amidarus Laconibus)
bonefang: Blandinus (Marius Blandinus Servius)
christos200: Caesar (Gaius Iulius Caesar)
Ekolite: Bruscius (Iustus Bruscius)
thomas.berubeg: Lucius (Lucius Domitius Protacius)
theDright: Servius (Servius Arrius Celsus Arrianus)
merciary: Tanicius (Appius Tanicius Uticensis)
mayor: Optitus (Gnaeus Cornelius Optitus)

If anyone would prefer a different short name, tell me.

 

[Grandkhan]

Also, Mayor, your stats;

Spoiler :

Name: Gnaeus Cornelius Optitus (mayor)
Location: Rome
Command: 0
Intrigue: 1
Management: 0
Governorships:
Funds: 0
Armies: 600 auxiliaries, 100 scouts
Traits: Patrician (+1 Intrigue)

 

[mayor]

OOC: I have conflicting sources on the limit, one talks about a limit of 500 Iugera (125 ha) the other talks about 500 Iugera + 250 Iugera (125 ha + 62,5 ha) for his two eldest sons.

EDIT: I got intrigue... I was writing this and I was sure to get management

EDIT2: I do know this is nitpicking, but please note that the limit was on the amount of Ager Publicus. A person could still own more than 125 ha.

 

[erez87]

OOC: In any case , it's a limit the numbers don't matter much.

Anyway - I'd rather tick the few rich dudes than the giant mob that is hungry, poor and jobless just waiting to have its fun.

 

[Grandkhan]

Yeah, it might be 125 ha. The two sons is definitely in there though, I remember that.

 

[mayor]

OOC: yeah the sons are in there. the problem is interpretation, my girlfriend insists that our teacher taught that it was 500 iugera and that his two sons would receive half of it (I contest this, but I skipped some classes ). Our textbook, written by an other teacher of us, doesn't even mention the two sons.
A book I own by an other Dutch history professor mentions that it was 500 Iugera + 250 for every 2 oldest sons

 

[SamSniped]

Marcus Argetius Viator

Marcus Argetius Viator, you suggest we conquer and occupy Pannonia and give the land to all the plebeians in Italia? So your solution to the land problem is to remove the poor from view and send them to an undeveloped forests filled with raiders and barbarians that we are fighting? Or perhaps you mean we should send them after Pannonia is developed... in several decades after most of the poor have already suffered most of their lives? Don't take me wrong, I am in support for the conquest of Pannonia and either adding it to another province that borders it or the creation of a new province, and one day that province's land could be given to plebeians, althought I must remind you that without the Gracchii Reform the rich landowners would still just buy it off them eventually in a time of need for the poor... But there does not lay the solution for our problem of an angry landless mob.

Allow me to be more clear on this subject. What was implied was that some of the land would be Republic-owned, and plebians would be encouraged to work the land, under protection of the legion guarding the land, and the forces of the governor. The workers would be paid in grain and coppers, and their work would aid the grain for the Grain Dole, and result in less jobless plebians.

Cassius Flavius Livius, I believe you would make a good general on the front of Gaul or in the forests of Pannonia, leading the attack. If I am consul I will support you for the control of the second legion in Pannonia or the fourth legion in Gaul, at your choice and with the discussion with the other consul.

I thank you for completely understanding that I would like the position of command against Pannonia.

To all senators, I have decided to reinstate my opinion of the grain Dole. I believe that unless military needs call for more funds, the Grain Dole should be as high as required to feed all poor and starving Roman citizens.
Also I would like to remind all that I am the only nominee that calls to send envoys to friendly states to sign alliances and perhaps tributary states.

You have called for such? I did not notice this. I would gladly send whoever volunteers to be an envoy, or whoever we need to, but who has volunteered for such as of yet?

Also I would like to add another subject. Considering governess would make their salaries from the province they rule - we must consider a salary for other senator jobs. A general should make a salary just as much as a governor of a rich province for risking his life for the greatness of the empire. Whether I am consul or not I will bring this to voting in the senate. As a consul I will bring it to the other consul for a faster move into bill.

I approve of this, and regardless of who becomes consul, I will try to make sure this happens.

My apologies for my recent absence. I had affairs to attend to at my estate (aka finals), although my aid has kept me well informed.

Pachomius seems to have some dangerous ideas as to how he expects the republic to work, prioritizing the Plebs over Rome. Perhaps we should return him to his beloved Athens, and let him practice his democracy there. Bruscius seems much more agreeable in this affair. As the senate stands, it seems Pachomius and Bruscius will be the consuls, which will be quite interesting.

Does Viator have more to say? I find his position rather agreeable, but the senate does not seem to support him. Perhaps if you were to expand your platform, you would gain more support.

My vote is between Viator and Bruscius right now. I doubt it will have much influence, but I will hold it off until I hear more.

@ erez & samsniped, get your patrician arse to work ...

I apologize, I also have had mich business to attend to (OOC: I'm a freshman in high school, and due to my screwed-up schedule, I can't spend as much time on CFC usually as the other senators trying for consulship. That's why I have posted less). I will try and show my opinions more, but the easiest way to find my ideas is to ask around (OOC: read my older posts in the thread).

"I, Servius Arrius Celsus Aemilianus (theDright), vote for Marcus Argetius Viator (SamSniped) for Consul."

Ago tibi maximas gratias, vir optime!

OOC: Thank you, DC, that makes far more sense. For reference, the list of players, full names, and short names I'm using at present:

talonschild: Cassiodor (Placidus Aurelius Cassiodorus)
erez87: Tiberius (Tiberius Tertinius Pachomius)
Eltain: Marsicus (Gnaeus Oppius Marsicus)
Nintz: Cassius (Cassius Flavinus Livius)
Popcornlord: Aulus (Aulus Mucia Laetonius)
SamSniped: Viator (Marcus Argetius Viator)
DC123456789: Ulpianus (Servius Licinius Ulpianus)
momo1000: Titus (Titus Lucretius Longus)
germanicus12: Marcus (Marcus Cornelius Scipio)
Seon: Rufus (Rufus Amidarus Laconibus)
bonefang: Blandinus (Marius Blandinus Servius)
christos200: Caesar (Gaius Iulius Caesar)
Ekolite: Bruscius (Iustus Bruscius)
thomas.berubeg: Lucius (Lucius Domitius Protacius)
theDright: Servius (Servius Arrius Celsus Arrianus)
merciary: Tanicius (Appius Tanicius Uticensis)
mayor: Optitus (Gnaeus Cornelius Optitus)

If anyone would prefer a different short name, tell me.

(OOC: Viator or Argetius works)

Also, for the record, I support myself, Marcus Argetius Viator (SamSniped), for Consul.

 

[erez87]

If you agree with me so, why not vote for me?

Also read mayor's rants about the Gracchi reforms for an answer to your answer

 

[SamSniped]

If you agree with me so, why not vote for me?

Also read mayor's rants about the Gracchi reforms for an answer to your answer

For the rest of our views differ.
And I have heard him. I have heard every word each senator has said so far. In fact, his words were:

But I will cut to the base of me. Members of the Senate, Senator Cassidorus, most of you misinterpret the Gracchii Reforms. The lands included in these reforms are the lands of the state, the Ager Publicus. I have explained this earlier but apparently you do not deem it worthy to listen to one as young as me. The lands that are owned rightfully trough purchase are not at stake here. The Lex Agricultura of Tiberius Gracchus only limits the amount of land one can rent from the State.

*Sighs*
Apparently I must always explain what is implied. I said some of the new land is set aside for the plebeians, no? Therefore, that land should be NOT rentable or able to be purchased by anyone, and instead be owned by the government, and worked by the people. As to not displease the landowners, that is why I say some of the land, as the remainder will be used by the Republic for its noble causes, or by the landowners for their purposes.

 

[erez87]

What about the rich Plebs? They also have large plantations and take over the poor's lands. Your solution won't solve that - it will also make a bigger separation of plebs and patricians, something I am obviously against

 

[mayor]

For the rest of our views differ.
And I have heard him. I have heard every word each senator has said so far. In fact, his words were:

*Sighs*
Apparently I must always explain what is implied. I said some of the new land is set aside for the plebeians, no? Therefore, that land should be NOT rentable or able to be purchased by anyone, and instead be owned by the government, and worked by the people. As to not displease the landowners, that is why I say some of the land, as the remainder will be used by the Republic for its noble causes, or by the landowners for their purposes.

OOC: .... why is everyone assuming I'm talking to them? I was talking to Seon's character..

 

[SamSniped]

EDITED
OOC@mayor- I am talking to Erez, and in an IC situation, your words were overheard by more than just Seon

IC@Erez- Dī bonī*! I said "not rentable or able to be purchased by anyone." Does that not apply to rich plebeians?

*Good gods!

 

[mayor]

OOC: I understand that, that was why I was specifically adressing the person I was talking to in my first sentence ;p

 

[SamSniped]

OOC: and then talked to all the senators:

But I will cut to the base of me. Members of the Senate, Senator Cassidorus, most of you misinterpret the Gracchii Reforms.

 

[theDright]

"I wish to indicate the neglect paid by the campaigns so far to the character and qualifications of the consular candidates. Candidate Tiberius Tertinius spent the last decade hiding in Greece, while Marcus Argetius and Iustus Bruscius were serving in the Legions. I know who I trust at this moment with consular command."

 

[talonschild]

"Hiding" being subjective at best. Even if he were "hiding", it was on the order of his father, whom he wisely obeyed, and he put his time there to extremely good use, studying both philosophy and war.

 

[theDright]

"Hiding is subjective? I think the verb has quite a clear meaning. And did you say studying war?!...pfffffffffffff..."



"...haha...he...Mrm...As I was saying, just because Tiberius Tertinius obeys his father does not make him a competent commander of the Legions; it goes to show that he is a pious man, but no more. And what do Greeks know of war? My terms in Hispania in my 20s as an Equestrian and Tribune were well spent then; I am overqualified if 'studying war under Greeks' qualifies one for the consulship."

"Is this not the same Tiberius that stated that commercial efficiency was 'relative' earlier as well? The fact is this: granting all of the Ager Publica to smallholders produces less grain for the people. Sure, some farmers may subsist off the land, but what about the urban poor, who depend upon the cheap grain from the grain dole? I think that perhaps he should have studied logic a little bit more in Greece, and a little less democracy."

 

[talonschild]

Cassiodor

It says a great deal better about his character than you so ungenerously implied. As for the dole, the reduction in municipal poor caused by an increase in farming will enable the dole to be applied more generously to those who need it.

 

[theDright]

"Care to offer an explanation of how his character is improved? Or do you state mere platitudes? These Gracchi reforms seem that they would contribute to a long term shortage of grain in the city, increasing the price of the grain dole. And no comment upon the other candidate's qualifications? Non-defense of his questionable credentials does not improve them, as well as a drunken layabout rising to his defense."