KhaNESII: S.P.Q.R

[theDright]

"I, Servius Aemilius Celsus Arrianus (theDright), vote for Marcus Argetius Viator (SamSniped) Iustus Bruscius (Ekolite) for Consul."

 

[Popcornlord]

Aulus, please, do not threaten me with exile like a common dictator. I do not prioritize the Plebs over Rome, it is you who look at the Plebs as not being part of Rome, as not being part of the greatness that is Rome. Are the plebeians your dogs? Do they not deserve the greatness of Rome just as much as any Roman?

Many good soldiers are plebeians, that with the end of their military will find themselves hungry and dying. Is that the way you see the good soldiers of Rome? As only good for bleeding, not for feeding and living their lives?

OOC. The plebs just had all their equality mostly canceled by Sulla. Do we really want them to strike?

Exile? I was talking about governorship. It seems the place most fitting for your ideologies.

And let me explain my position on the plebs. I view rome as highest, and the plebs as an important component. When the plebs work for rome, they are part of its greatness. Soldiers exemplify this perhaps the most. But when they do nothing for rome, rome should do nothing for them. And when it is best for the plebs to suffer a bit, for the greater good, then we should be willing to let it happen. Is there one here who would not suffer themselves, if the need arose? I do not see them above the greater good. If that makes them dogs, so be it. But I view it as a far greater honor myself.

 

[Seon]

You are blind, senator, you only see your only interests in danger, have your own prosperity at heart. You are trying to profit from Roman Citizens. You, senator, don't have to good for Rome and its people at heart but your own wallet.

Are the plebeians your dogs?

OOC: If you are going to bring morality and baseless accusations into arguments, I can do so too.

I find these statements by the two esteemed senators laughable. Thank you for bringing humor into our grave halls of the Senate. Surely you did not intend to say such things.

But in any case, allow me to respond to these baseless accusations. Senator Bruscius have never expressed any desire to profit from his measures. He has never claimed to desire any command or governorships of a province from his consulship. What shall we say of Tiberius in comparison? Has he not said so himself? That he had no qualms with... I quote... living with a Greek wife in a Italian manor with many slaves?

What Italian Manor and what slaves, I say. Was his entire family not killed during the proscription? Surely his lands would have been taken by the other supporters of Sulla, much like they did to me.

Esteemed Senators, I have a theory. Senator Tiberius seeks to Consulship only because he wants to recreate his dearly departed father's wealth. By taking away land from the patrician former supporters of Sulla, he opens of new land that he can then purchase for himself!

Where will the money for this come from? He himself claimed that he sought after the governorship of either Sicily or Italy, our two richest provinces. That is where the money will come from. He will tax our citizens of Italy and then use it for his own personal gain! He has no kinship with the plebians, he has eyes set only for his own personal gain.

Now I am not saying that this is true. Senator Tiberius, surely, is an honorable man. I am certain that he had only the honorable intentions in becoming a consul. But yet does this puzzle not fit?

Perhaps he will not accuse me of seeing things only selfishly. Gentlemen of the Senate, let me remind you all that I had similiar past with the esteemed Senator Tiberius. My father killed himself because of Sulla. Sulla cut me off from my rightful inheritance. I was sent away to War. My only property is my law practice. Yet I do not support the Gracchi Reforms which will open up my old ancestral lands. I do not support it not because it will harm me, but because I believe it will harm the Republic.

The Gracchi Reforms were works of madmen and should be treated ad such.

 

[talonschild]

Cassiodor

As I believe the Gracchi reforms are integral to Rome's long-term stability, I vote for Tiberius (erez87).

 

[mayor]

OOC: If you are going to bring morality and baseless accusations into arguments, I can do so too.

OOC: I'm a Populares trusting/needing the support of the people/poor of course I'm bringing baseless accusations that the other, wealthy, guy doesn't think about them... if I wouldn't that support would be gone

Edit: OOC: @Popcornlord; I'm doing this OOC because I'm not sure about your Roman knowledge, but you do realize that being a Plebeian just means that that person isn't a patrician. Plebeians were part of the senate. Hell, in 78 BC it was mandatory that one of the two consuls was a Plebeian

 

[Seon]

OOC: Yeah I know. That's why I am ending that before it goes out of control.

 

[erez87]

Exile? I was talking about governorship. It seems the place most fitting for your ideologies.

An easy mistake to make. It was not "should be sent to Athens to govern" that you said. but "returned" to Athens to practice Democracy. We are not a democracy, we are a Republic. In a republic only where only the two consuls rule Rome. In such a case these two consuls must care for all the citizens, not only the rich ones.

And let me explain my position on the plebs. I view rome as highest, and the plebs as an important component. When the plebs work for rome, they are part of its greatness. Soldiers exemplify this perhaps the most. But when they do nothing for rome, rome should do nothing for them. And when it is best for the plebs to suffer a bit, for the greater good, then we should be willing to let it happen. Is there one here who would not suffer themselves, if the need arose? I do not see them above the greater good. If that makes them dogs, so be it. But I view it as a far greater honor myself.

What can landless man, with nothing to buy even food with, can do for Rome? What do you expect the hungry and dying to give? They already gave blood, and now they seem to be giving their lives for Rome, without any war being fought, so the rich could get richer.

Your concerns are duly noted, however misplaced they must be.

Misplaced they are not. The Gracchii Reforms came, and passed for good reasons. Sulla destroyed them since he wanted the lands, of my family, of Rufu's family, and many others. And how could he grant himself vast lands before canceling the laws that limit the size of lands you are allowed to hold?

Firstly, you ask who am I to decide the fates of Romans. I am a Senator, and if it pleases the Gods I shall soon be a Consul. Of course I have the authority to dicate the lives of our citizens, as do all Senators. The idea that all citizens have a right to entirely choose their own course is simply not the case, we are a republic, not a democracy. Secondly, I am not ''forcing'' anyone to do anything, I am merely designing policy to encourage a transition in our demography which I believe in the long term will be extremely advantageous to our great Republic. Should they choose to do so, rural citizens may continue to work the land, even if they are not necessarily its owners. However, if they would prefer to migrate to our booming cities to seek employment they may choose to do so. Here they might start businesses, or take on an apprenticeship and learn a trade, this will be beneficial to our economy.

We Senators and possible Consuls are in charge of protecting the fates of Romans, not controlling them as if they were puppets. By allowing a few to control everything you demand of the many to become useless poor and hungry, throwing them at a life of crime and pain.

As for your idea of them "transitioning" to a new job, who do you expect to pay for this transition? And how can you demand poor people thrown from their lands by the rich to just adapt to the change?

And the change itself is... Silly. there are so many sandals we need in Rome. We are already overflowing with sandals that we sell them on the market, a commodity no one needs except those too poor to afford sandals.

I do not advocate directly increasing the taxation of the large plantations that will form, however due to the economies of scale they will produce, their costs will decrease and they will be able to sell their product more cheaply. Large-scale farming is simply much more efficient then the sea of small-holdings the Grachii Reforms would inflict upon us. Not limiting the ownership of land will also provide a financial incentive for the plantation owners to further expand their plots, which will cause more land to be cultivated, and thus more food produced, and of course, more tax collected for the Senate.

Efficiency is in the eye of the beholder. What is mroe efficient, a republic of people who feed themselves, and cloth themselves, and battle for Rome out of the wish to be a part of the its greatness, or a republic of rich men, who control a powerful economy to do their bidding? I say the first is the efficient one. The Rome we all grew to love. The Rome that conquered Carthage and Iberia.

The Republic will quickly adapt to these changing circumstances, and the result will be increased wealth and increased food production to the benefit of all.

The Republic before Sulla did fine. The economy was ever growing and the empire conquered vast lands. Why would the poor need to adapt to changes forced upon them by the rich?

Bla bla bla.

You seem to know less of what your choice for a consul wishes to do with his office of consul than me. You also seem to make a mockery of the death of nearly my entire family.

Alas, that does not matter. What matters is that the Gracchii Reforms are a deep need of the empire. As states by my esteemed colleague Gneaus, the reforms will not harm the economy, they will not harm owned lands. They will only limit the amount of leased land allowed by the rich who rule the lands of the republic as if it were their private asset.

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Let it be known that a vote for me, Tiberius Tertinius Pachomius, is a vote for the future of Rome, it is a vote for the people of Rome, all of them. It is a vote FOR the Geracchii Reforms, it is a vote FOR increasing the Grain Dole. It is a vote for ending once and for all the Sulla Triumphs! It is a vote for organizing the offices of the Republic, to be paid to each in accordance to his ability. It is a vote for ending the Pannonian raids and conquering their lands making those who dared to attack us slaves of the empire. It is a vote for Rome.

OOC: I never did baseless accusation
As for the Plebeian/Patrician thing. That isn't part of the problem. Most poor are plebeians yes, but there are probably many rich plebeians that oppose the reforms too.
Also. I know what you want from your consul choice, and what he wants as consul, so don't say he doesn't want governorship

 

[mayor]

If I first may address the Consul elect Bruscius. My dear Senator, I may be young but you are naive. You say that those deprived from their land, their livelihood are free to keep working their former lands. Do you think the landowner that acquired those lands will allow that? You think he would pay for labor while he just as easily can buy slaves and acquire cheap labor. No, it was Gaius Cracchus himself who wrote about what he saw when he traveled to Spain. Large plantages he saw, not worked by Roman citizens, but slaves. Do you think this has changed? You believe in the good of people, that they do not act in their own interest but in the interest of those below them, that is commendable. Unfortunately this is also naif. The great landowners of our empire do not seek the prosperity of the landless, the poor, they only seek the prosperity of themselves.
You say that you do not force those who lost their land to migrate to the city and you do not. Those that stand with me may be surprised, but I am right, you do not force them to move to the city with weapons. But what you do is give them a choice, a choice between starvation and migration.

And when they migrate, you say they can seek an apprenticeship. But what craftsmen will hire them? Those migrating are men with families, grown ups. Those men have to feed their families and are expensive. Why would a craftsmen hire such a man, they are expensive and it is harder to teach a grown man than it is to teach a boy. Maybe the farmer is fortunate and a craftsman agrees to hire one of his sons, but what about the other three? And what about his daughters? They won't find work. Your plans will create a large group of people that will never reach self-sufficiency besides dying.

I want to talk about your plans for the plantations. I speak as if you think that these will produce food. My kind Senator, another show of naivety. Those plantations don't grow food. They grow olives or grapes. These plantations produce luxury products that make money. I would like to ask you senator, when was the last time you actually visited the country side and looked upon these plantations with your own eyes?


Senator Cassidorus, you came to the support of Senator Bruscius against my accusation that he only cares about his prosperity and not the people of Rome. You claim that Senator Tiberius wants to rebuild the fortune that was lost to Sulla. Would you have me believe this is a goal unworthy? Would you have the Roman people it is wrong to try and build a fortune?
But I will cut to the base of me. Members of the Senate, Senator Cassidorus, most of you misinterpret the Gracchii Reforms. The lands included in these reforms are the lands of the state, the Ager Publicus. I have explained this earlier but apparently you do not deem it worthy to listen to one as young as me. The lands that are owned rightfully trough purchase are not at stake here. The Lex Agricultura of Tiberius Gracchus only limits the amount of land one can rent from the State.
The Gracchi reforms will not open your ancestral lands and nor will it open those of Senator Tiberius.

 

[Popcornlord]

OOC: I knew that the Plebeians could be wealthy, but I had not realized that they served in the senate as well. The discussion still still makes sense, just replace "pleb" with "the poor". To Aulus, it means the same thing.

Also, the front page mentions that "the established farms are forced out, and enrage the patricians". Wikipedia seems to imply that the reforms only affect conquered lands. Grandkhan, can we get a clarification on what exactly reenacting the laws would do, RP wise?

 

[erez87]

OOC I would assume particians as a whole will be hurt far more than plebs as a whole...

Also yeah poor-rich should be put in place from now on instead of patrician-plebs, unless one doesn't like plebs of course - like Sulla

 

[mayor]

OOC: well, in real life the Agricultural law of Tiberius Gracchus limited the amount of land a private person could rent from the state.

At some point conquered land was divided in three parts, of which one was the 'Ager Publicus', this land was state property and free for any Roman citizen to work in exchange for a rent. This rent was below the commercial rent. (excuse me for not being more specific but I had something do drink and am not in the mood to look it up)
Tiberius Gracchus limited these lands to 500 Iugera (250 hectare) per person.

 

[erez87]

Also do note - if I am Consul I will leave the decision to the senate to vote upon.

 

[DC123456789]

I, Servius Licinius Ulpianus, vote for Tiberius Tertinius Palomachius (erez87) for consul.

 

[Ekolite]

Also do note - if I am Consul I will leave the decision to the senate to vote upon.

Oh please, Pachomius, let's not forget that this was not your original policy on the Grachii reforms. This was an agreement that was negotiated, at my suggestion, should we become the two Consul's of Rome.

If you had it your way you would inflict the Grachii reforms relentlessly upon the People of Rome, despite the clear will of most who have spoken here at the Senate. If you had it your way you would go against the wills of your Senators and enforce the reforms unilaterally!

The only thing stopping you from doing so would be your potential co-Censor, it is I therefore which would be responsible for ensuring that the final decision on this controversial issue is made by the Senate, and not enforced against their will.

 

[erez87]

Oh please, Pachomius, let's not forget that this was not your original policy on the Grachii reforms. This was an agreement that was negotiated, at my suggestion, should we become the two Consul's of Rome.

If you had it your way you would inflict the Grachii reforms relentlessly upon the People of Rome, despite the clear will of most who have spoken here at the Senate. If you had it your way you would go against the wills of your Senators and enforce the reforms unilaterally!

The only thing stopping you from doing so would be your potential co-Censor, it is I therefore which would be responsible for ensuring that the final decision on this controversial issue is made by the Senate, and not enforced against their will.

It would be yours to not bring the most needed reform for the people and Rome, no matter what the senate decides, a decision that has not been made yet.

And yes I would have done it, for the senate, including myself, is a group of people who are mostly living quite good lives, they are not the poor who are dying in hunger and are left bored to loot and do crime for being jobless.

In any case, whether by agreement or not, I will let the senate to decide upon all laws.

 

[talonschild]

Cassiodor

Senator Cassidorus, you came to the support of Senator Bruscius against my accusation that he only cares about his prosperity and not the people of Rome. You claim that Senator Tiberius wants to rebuild the fortune that was lost to Sulla. Would you have me believe this is a goal unworthy? Would you have the Roman people it is wrong to try and build a fortune?
But I will cut to the base of me. Members of the Senate, Senator Cassidorus, most of you misinterpret the Gracchii Reforms. The lands included in these reforms are the lands of the state, the Ager Publicus. I have explained this earlier but apparently you do not deem it worthy to listen to one as young as me. The lands that are owned rightfully trough purchase are not at stake here. The Lex Agricultura of Tiberius Gracchus only limits the amount of land one can rent from the State.
The Gracchi reforms will not open your ancestral lands and nor will it open those of Senator Tiberius.

Senator Optitus, I assume your first sentence meant to name Tiberius, not Bruscius. With that in mind:
I support Tiberius because I support the Gracchi reforms. Plain and simple. Yes, I will readily admit that my family was a great deal wealthier before my uncle Laurentius's murder. There is a saying: Blood calls out for blood. And I will further admit that I had dedicated myself to Sulla's death before the furious plebeian assassin performed the job for me.
However, my support from the Gracchi reforms springs out of something else entirely. While I desire my ancestral lands back, I have enough to support myself as a Senator. I may not entertain as extravagantly, but so be it. It is my sincere heartfelt belief that the Ager Publicus is in the best interests of Rome. While the fact that I possess sincere heartfelt beliefs at all is somewhat out of character for me, please, remember that I am changing. Changing into a man worthy of the title Senator. Now, I believe that the people must be truly self-sufficient. This means their own farms, should the desire them. Not all the plebeians are incompetent scoundrels. Patricians are not infallible. The competent poor must have a chance to rise. The incompetent rich must have a chance to fall. The Gracchi reforms are, in my opinion, the way to ensure these chances exist. I would not have all the poor dependent on the dole, when there are among them those with the ability to rise and provide something of use to the Republic.

I am not opposed to an alternative form of ensuring this, but at present the system does not provide this, and the Gracchi reforms seem like the simplest and easiest route to the freedoms necessary for Republican stability.

If you did, in fact, mean that I supported Bruscius, I have no idea how to reply. I cast my vote for Tiberius above.

 

[mayor]

OOC: Talon... I was talking to Seon's character, I also am a supporter of the Gracchi reforms

 

[Seon]

OOC: I loled.

 

[erez87]

Tiberius Tertinius Pachomius

Senate, before I go to rest from the day, I wish to speak once more.

For several years Sulla the dictator have reformed and changed Rome, not with the people in mind but with stability in mind. He created a powerful senate that no longer bowed to the plebeian tribunes, an office that is no longer of any importance.

If Sulla had stopped there, stabilizing by making the senate stronger, perhaps he would not have been seen as a harsh dictator. Stability is an understandable cause.

But Sulla have not stopped there. As spoken by my supporter, Gneaus Optitus, Sulla decided to attack the Gracchian Reforms, the reforms of the two good brothers, who saw only the needs of the weak before their eyes, even at the price of death, that did indeed came upon them. The reforms, created to allow the people of Rome to take part of the Empire and enjoy its new found riches, made Rome more stable from the side of the poor, particularly the plebs. It was only out of spite to the tribune of the plebs that Sulla attacked these reforms, not noticing what he had caused.

Within a few years already many plebs have lost their leased lands to ever growing plantations of the rich, that do not aid the Roman economy, that is a lie, they only aid the power of the rich, and their influence over Rome. Now Rome again, like in the past, is filled with the immigrant poor who come here landless, with nothing to buy food with, demanding action and aid. They bring with them what poor people forced to flee their lands always bring - crime, damage and pain. In the past when this happened the plebs gained power by their sheer numbers and created the tribune of plebs, the same unstable office Sulla sought to end. If we allow them again to become a large poor mob, they will bring the instability again.

Instead, unlike the last time these problems were upon us, and the senate did nothing, forcing the plebs to join together and defeat it by numbers and strikes, this time we must prove the people the senate is not only a bunch of rich people caring only for their needs, or the rich needs, but for all of the people's needs. This time let us show them the senate cares about the common man, about the poor, about the plebs. Whether I am consul or not, it has nothing to do with this - The Gracchii Reforms must be reenacted by us, as a proof for out might, before they are forced upon us by the mob as a proof of our second downfall.

 

[erez87]

lolooc : that's why I say everyone, for now must post their name on the top of every message

I also keep a handy excel with everyone and their support and stats