KhaNESII: S.P.Q.R

[Nintz]

--- Cassius Flavius Livius ---

*cringes visibly*

True. Your relative silence in the debates made my aides forget to tell me about you.

I am changing my support to Marcus Argetius Viator for now.

 

[Grandkhan]

Yeah guys. If you want to get votes, you have got to put yourself out there and debate! Why should a senator vote for you and not the other guys? Tell us!

 

[bonefang]

@ erez & samsniped, get your patrician arse to work ...

 

[erez87]

Tiberius Tertinius Pachomius

Marcus Argetius Viator, you suggest we conquer and occupy Pannonia and give the land to all the plebeians in Italia? So your solution to the land problem is to remove the poor from view and send them to an undeveloped forests filled with raiders and barbarians that we are fighting?

Or perhaps you mean we should send them after Pannonia is developed... in several decades after most of the poor have already suffered most of their lives?

Don't take me wrong, I am in support for the conquest of Pannonia and either adding it to another province that borders it or the creation of a new province, and one day that province's land could be given to plebeians, althought I must remind you that without the Gracchii Reform the rich landowners would still just buy it off them eventually in a time of need for the poor... But there does not lay the solution for our problem of an angry landless mob.


Cassius Flavius Livius, I believe you would make a good general on the front of Gaul or in the forests of Pannonia, leading the attack. If I am consul I will support you for the control of the second legion in Pannonia or the fourth legion in Gaul, at your choice and with the discussion with the other consul.


To all senators, I have decided to reinstate my opinion of the grain Dole. I believe that unless military needs call for more funds, the Grain Dole should be as high as required to feed all poor and starving Roman citizens.
Also I would like to remind all that I am the only nominee that calls to send envoys to friendly states to sign alliances and perhaps tributary states.

Also I would like to add another subject. Considering governess would make their salaries from the province they rule - we must consider a salary for other senator jobs. A general should make a salary just as much as a governor of a rich province for risking his life for the greatness of the empire. Whether I am consul or not I will bring this to voting in the senate. As a consul I will bring it to the other consul for a faster move into bill.

 

[Grandkhan]

Nominations are closed. Voting will now begin.

Please vote for one of the following candidates:


Tiberius Tertinius Palomachius (erez87),
Marcus Aurelius Viator (Samsniped)
Iustus Bruscius (ekolite)[/QUOTE]

Please format your vote as
I vote for A B C (Grandkhan)

That is, please bold your vote and include the username of whoever you are voting for.

If you have voted prior to this post, you must vote again, otherwise your vote will not be counted. Statements of support are not formal votes.

If you wish to change your vote, please edit your original post.

You have 72 hours to vote, or until everybody who has shown up in the thread has voted and there is no flip-flopping between candidates.

Please carry on voting and campaigning.

 

[bonefang]

Dear Tiberius, please do understand that adding a territory will give me immense pleasure, there is just one concern that I have for you. Do we have enough troops to guard this province ? Even if the Roman Patricians and Plebs move into the new region, which is very difficult in the first place, there will be a lot of angry Pannonians, in the wilderness eager to take revenge on anything Roman. We would be requiring a lot of men just to guard our own interests.

Does the Roman Senate think that we have enough manpower, to take care of this predicament ?

 

[erez87]

Tiberius Tertinius Pachomius
ooc: please for now everyone add your name until we remember

I think the Empire could easily hold onto Pannonia, especially after expanding the legions.

In any case

I vote for Tiberius Tertinius Pachomius (erez87)
And what makes me different from other nominees is that I support a salary system for generals, envoys and other jobs of the government. This way those with ability to command would not be interested in governorship just for the income is provides versus the not provided for general job.

 

[theDright]

OOC: Generally civil authority and military authority go together in Republic Rome. If you want someone to take a Legion and fight the Pannonians, you give them an adjacent province, ie Cisalpine Gaul or Hellenia to govern. Or they are one of the consuls for the year. Other jobs, ie envoys, other positions, could be paid from the Republic's treasury.

 

[erez87]

Perhaps. But the rules here are awkwardly skewed to governorships being the most powerful job (hey a governer makes as much money as the whole republic from a province! Shouldn't the republic take a bigger share of the taxes?) and since I don't think there should be general-governors (holding a province makes you powerful enough, give you an army too?) I think a salary for generals stand. Right now everyone wants to be governors, and considering they aren't all with 1 in management that will cost the empire as a whole quite a bit.

 

[mayor]

Name: Gneaus Cornelius Optitus(mayor)

Son of an old patrician familiy who traces lineage back to the kings.
Started the Cursus honorum, became Questor during consulship of Marius and Aedille under Sulla.
He a Populares; supporter of the Gracchii Reforms.
Wants the Sulla Triumphes to be revoked.

-----

"My fellow senators,

I am but young, just finished my first term as Aedille, but I want to remind you of the purpose of the land reforms of Tiberius Gracchus.
When Rome started its way to glory and made its first conquests not all land was sold to private persons. Part of the land became state property, Ager Publicus. This land was free to be worked by any Roman citizen for a tenancy below the commercial prizes. The purpose of the arrangement was for the poor to benefit from our conquests. They could farm for low prizes and become prosperous. However, Vultures, who had enough money to pay the commercial prizes or even buy land, swooped in and forced the poor off these lands. While they were not forbidden to work this land it defeated the purpose and made many Roman citizen homeless and without income. Tiberius Gracchus tried to restore these lands to their original purpose. He proposed to limit the amount of Ager Publicus one can own.
I heard one of my fellow senators adress his fear that the land he bought would be taken from him. I say, fear not. The land you bought is yours, for this is not included in the reforms. Ager Publicus can not be bought but only leased and it is these lands that are part of the reforms.
These reforms will give poor Roman citizens the possibility to receive a steady income. Meaning that they will no longer have to be subsidized by the state to buy grain, cutting on the costs, furthermore these man will pay a tenency increasing the incomes of the state. These reforms are nothing but good for our treasury and I can see no good reason to vote against it.

On the grain dole. I say keep it, the Gracchii reforms will not free enough land for all poor and everyone must eat. We are responsible for the well being of all Roman citizen and should act like it.

My final word will be about the Triumphes of Sulla. He illegially organized them for himselve, making a mockery of our traditions. They should be revoked. Sulla was a dictator and a threat to the republic, any right he had on a Triumph dissapeared when he marched his armies on Rome and took the city by force. Therefor, I do not only support to revoke his Triumphes I propose to strike his name from the records and speak a Damnatio Memoria out over him. He is not worth being mentioned again in here.

I vote for Tiberius Tertinius Pachomius (erez87)
I haven’t heard him about the Triumphes but I trust him to do what is right for Rome and for our traditions."

 

[erez87]

Thank you for the vote of confidence and wonderful explanation of the importance of the Gracchii reforms. I call all senators to support the reforms in the senate vote after the consular elections.

Also as I stated before I will work to revoke the illegal triumphs.

 

[mayor]

OOC: I felt like I read over it but couldn't find it... let's just say that when your character said that my characters youth intervened... he got distracted

 

[Ekolite]

Just to reiterate my position:

Senate and People of Rome, the time has come for a rebirth of true Roman principles and a rejuvenation of Roman power and authority around the Mare Nostrum. If elected as Consul, I will not reinstate the Gracchii Reforms, as I believe this will be too damaging to the economy of our developing provinces. Instead I will encourage the growth of large plantations in order to reduce over time the average cost of bread and other basic foodstuffs, and so provide better for our people. I believe that the growth of large plantations will also push free citizens into the cities, driving the process of urbanisation and allowing them to re-specialise as craftsmen, which will ultimately boost trade and benefit the Roman economy and people. The additional taxation that these large plantations will provide shall also go a long way to subsidising a reinstated grain dole which shall be boosted to near previous levels in order to support those adjusting to life in the cities.

I advocate a strong response to the Pannonian barbarians to the North in order to prevent them from gaining confidence. If we allow them to run amok they will provide an example to other barbarian tribes that the Roman Republic can be treated with contempt without fear of reprisal. I will also pledge to closely watch our deadly foe, King Mithridates, and be ready to re-engage with him to defend the integrity of our borders.

Vote for Ekolite/Iustus Bruscius!

 

[Seon]

I support Buscius's attempt for the consulship.

 

[thomas.berubeg]

As do I!

I vote for Iustus Bruscius (ekolite)

 

[mayor]

I believe that the growth of large plantations will also push free citizens into the cities, driving the process of urbanisation and allowing them to re-specialise as craftsmen, which will ultimately boost trade and benefit the Roman economy and people. The additional taxation that these large plantations will provide shall also go a long way to subsidising a reinstated grain dole which shall be boosted to near previous levels in order to support those adjusting to life in the cities.

I advocate a strong response to the Pannonian barbarians to the North in order to prevent them from gaining confidence. If we allow them to run amok they will provide an example to other barbarian tribes that the Roman Republic can be treated with contempt without fear of reprisal. I will also pledge to closely watch our deadly foe, King Mithridates, and be ready to re-engage with him to defend the integrity of our borders.

Vote for Ekolite/Iustus Bruscius!

Of course the free citizens will be pushed towards the city, where else could they go? Your plans will doom these men. They'll move to the city because they have no livelihood anymore, no income nor money. Senator, these people don't have the luxury that you have of a full chest. They cannot dip their hands into a wallet and reach for money. There income is just enough to live, they cannot save up.
You say that they will be forced to re specialize, but they will be against their will. Who are you to decide the course of their lives, they are free citizens of Rome and have the right to choose their own course. And besides, who is going to pay for the respecialization? These men are farmers that don't possess any crafting skills, who is going to pay for their education. They sure won't, they can't even pay their own livelihood. Will the state pay for this education as well as for their livelihood? This will bankrupt the state.
You say that the extra money needed will come from extra taxes on the plantations. However, respected senator, you fail to realize that higher taxation on these plantations will increase the prize of the products that these plantations produce. Your taxation will only cause inflation and hurt the poor only more.

You are blind, senator, you only see your only interests in danger, have your own prosperity at heart. You are trying to profit from Roman Citizens. You, senator, don't have to good for Rome and its people at heart but your own wallet.

 

[Ekolite]

Your concerns are duly noted, however misplaced they must be.

Firstly, you ask who am I to decide the fates of Romans. I am a Senator, and if it pleases the Gods I shall soon be a Consul. Of course I have the authority to dicate the lives of our citizens, as do all Senators. The idea that all citizens have a right to entirely choose their own course is simply not the case, we are a republic, not a democracy. Secondly, I am not ''forcing'' anyone to do anything, I am merely designing policy to encourage a transition in our demography which I believe in the long term will be extremely advantageous to our great Republic. Should they choose to do so, rural citizens may continue to work the land, even if they are not necessarily its owners. However, if they would prefer to migrate to our booming cities to seek employment they may choose to do so. Here they might start businesses, or take on an apprenticeship and learn a trade, this will be beneficial to our economy.

As for your other points, as I made clear earlier I advocate increasing the grain dole. This is a free hand-out of bread to citizens who cannot afford to feed themselves. This will act as a buffer, preventing these migrants from starving while they find work. At first, the cost of this dole may be large, due to many claimants seeking to adjust, but within a few years it will be substantially lessened as these find work and become self-sufficient.

I do not advocate directly increasing the taxation of the large plantations that will form, however due to the economies of scale they will produce, their costs will decrease and they will be able to sell their product more cheaply. Large-scale farming is simply much more efficient then the sea of small-holdings the Grachii Reforms would inflict upon us. Not limiting the ownership of land will also provide a financial incentive for the plantation owners to further expand their plots, which will cause more land to be cultivated, and thus more food produced, and of course, more tax collected for the Senate.

The Republic will quickly adapt to these changing circumstances, and the result will be increased wealth and increased food production to the benefit of all.

 

[merciary]

I vote for Iustus Bruscius (ekolite) as well.

 

[Popcornlord]

My apologies for my recent absence. I had affairs to attend to at my estate (aka finals), although my aid has kept me well informed.

Pachomius seems to have some dangerous ideas as to how he expects the republic to work, prioritizing the Plebs over Rome. Perhaps we should return him to his beloved Athens, and let him practice his democracy there. Bruscius seems much more agreeable in this affair. As the senate stands, it seems Pachomius and Bruscius will be the consuls, which will be quite interesting.

Does Viator have more to say? I find his position rather agreeable, but the senate does not seem to support him. Perhaps if you were to expand your platform, you would gain more support.

My vote is between Viator and Bruscius right now. I doubt it will have much influence, but I will hold it off until I hear more.

 

[erez87]

Aulus, please, do not threaten me with exile like a common dictator. I do not prioritize the Plebs over Rome, it is you who look at the Plebs as not being part of Rome, as not being part of the greatness that is Rome. Are the plebeians your dogs? Do they not deserve the greatness of Rome just as much as any Roman?

Many good soldiers are plebeians, that with the end of their military will find themselves hungry and dying. Is that the way you see the good soldiers of Rome? As only good for bleeding, not for feeding and living their lives?

OOC. The plebs just had all their equality mostly canceled by Sulla. Do we really want them to strike?