KhaNESII: S.P.Q.R

[bonefang]

I, Marius support Tiberius Tertinius Pachomius(Erez) for consul

 

[talonschild]

Cassiodor

My point is this - he did not flee out of fear but because he was ordered to. Thus we know him to be a one dedicated to service, obedience, and tradition. You've already spoken of the other two, who with military service have learned much the same virtues.

At any rate I believe this argument has gone on far longer than it needed to. You made a partisan comment in favour of your chosen candidate and the one you believe to be most similar to him. I noted out that it was not quite entirely accurate. The rest is what it is. I now await votecounts to determine the opinion of the Senate.


OOC: A here's-where-we're-at-so-far vote summary, just for giggles:

Tiberius (erez)
-Cassiodor (Me)
-Optitus (Tiberius)
-Ulpianus (DC123456789)
-Blandinus (bonefang)
Bruscius (Ekolite)
-Rufus (Seon)
-Lucius (thomas.berubeg)
-Tanicius (merciary)
Viator (SamSniped)
-Servius (theDright)

 

[momo1000]

I, Titus Lucretius Longus, vote for Tiberius Tertinius Pachomius (erez87).

OOC: talonschild, I'd like my shortname to be Longus instead of Titus

 

[bonefang]

OOC : My name should perhaps better as Marius ...

Marian Reforms !!

 

[talonschild]

As you will. Updated:

Spoiler :

talonschild: Cassiodor (Placidus Aurelius Cassiodorus)
erez87: Tiberius (Tiberius Tertinius Pachomius)
Eltain: Marsicus (Gnaeus Oppius Marsicus)
Nintz: Cassius (Cassius Flavinus Livius)
Popcornlord: Aulus (Aulus Mucia Laetonius)
SamSniped: Viator (Marcus Argetius Viator)
DC123456789: Ulpianus (Servius Licinius Ulpianus)
momo1000: Longus (Titus Lucretius Longus)
germanicus12: Marcus (Marcus Cornelius Scipio)
Seon: Rufus (Rufus Amidarus Laconibus)
bonefang: Marius (Marius Blandinus Servius)
christos200: Caesar (Gaius Iulius Caesar)
Ekolite: Bruscius (Iustus Bruscius)
thomas.berubeg: Lucius (Lucius Domitius Protacius)
theDright: Servius (Servius Arrius Celsus Arrianus)
merciary: Tanicius (Appius Tanicius Uticensis)
mayor: Optitus (Gnaeus Cornelius Optitus)

And updated votecount:

Spoiler :

Tiberius (erez)
-Cassiodor (Me)
-Optitus (Tiberius)
-Ulpianus (DC123456789)
-Blandinus (bonefang)
-Longus (momo1000)
Bruscius (Ekolite)
-Rufus (Seon)
-Lucius (thomas.berubeg)
-Tanicius (merciary)
Viator (SamSniped)
-Servius (theDright)

 

[Eltain]

I, Gnaeius Oppius Marsicus, vote for Iustus Bruscius. [ekolite]

I would doubt any would have an easier time ruling Hispania Citerior province than I, having grown up there and tended to my father's .. my own estates there for the past two decades. Therefore, I would like to put my name on the plate for a governorship of Hispania Citerior, for the good of the Republic, her treasury, her citizens and Rome. The Celtiberii and Galaeciae need to be put in their place, and I believe I am the one to do it.

I hope I have not made any enemies in casting my vote here today. I was taught to vote on the issues by my- by my father. May the speed of Mercury bless this election peacefully.

 

[Popcornlord]

Aulus Mucia Laetonius

Firstly, I will make known that I am more than willing to serve as an envoy wherever the consuls deep fit. My experience in diplomacy is somewhat lacking, but I have spent a good time traveling these past years.

I believe I have made my stance quite clear on the Gracchii reforms. However, I will not deny that Tiberius presents some valid points. As such, I wish to suggest an alternative approach for the senate to consider. Perhaps this will work to appease both sides.

There will be no limit placed on the territory that any one man can own. However, he will be obliged to rent part of his land away to smaller farmers, instead of letting it be worked by slaves. The exact details are not important now, but we could consider the size of one of these plots to be similar to the size of a farm in the Gracchii reforms. The landlord and his workers may choose to share certain amenities among themselves. At the end of the harvest, the workers will give to the landlord a predetermined amount of the harvest. The stability is maintained, as much of the current system can be kept in place. The Patriarchs will see a something of a decrease in their profits, but will still maintain control of their lands. The Plebs can work and be fed. Any increase in the cost of grain, due to a switch away from slave labor, will be made up for by requiring less of a grain dole.

The system is not perfect, but with discussion from the senate, it may alleviate the problems inherent in either extreme. Your thoughts, senators?

OOC: Thank you Grandkhan for clearing things up.
Also, first or last name is fine for my nickname.
If the proposal seems a little far fetched for ancient Rome, I can remove it for the sake of RP. Wikipedia says that the Metayage system was occasionally used, but I can't find much else after brief search.

 

[Grandkhan]

Ok, turns out I misread theDright's namechange.

theDright is now playing 'Servius Aemilius Celsus Arrianus.'

Please be aware.

 

[talonschild]

So, a private-owned version of the Gracchi reforms?

 

[erez87]

"I wish to indicate the neglect paid by the campaigns so far to the character and qualifications of the consular candidates. Candidate Tiberius Tertinius spent the last decade hiding in Greece, while Marcus Argetius and Iustus Bruscius were serving in the Legions. I know who I trust at this moment with consular command."

Are you attacking my character? I have not hid in Greece, I was there under the pretense that I am studying. I had no idea my father is sending me to hide. If I had known I would have protested, and most likely would not have been alive at this point.

OOC: Didn't all Romans serve the army? So I did too, just that it isn't an important part of my character's life... Aren't we all at least 30 years old too, doesn't a senator have to be?

And what do Greeks know of war? My terms in Hispania in my 20s as an Equestrian and Tribune were well spent then; I am overqualified if 'studying war under Greeks' qualifies one for the consulship."

Are you denying that every Roman with ability has a Greek teacher for himself? The Greek culture is wise and progressive. They have vast philosophical knowledge that Romans love to learn. And yes, I did study tactics and Greek military, which is undoubtedly lesser than ours, but still, do you deny the importance of studying and learning?

"Is this not the same Tiberius that stated that commercial efficiency was 'relative' earlier as well? The fact is this: granting all of the Ager Publica to smallholders produces less grain for the people. Sure, some farmers may subsist off the land, but what about the urban poor, who depend upon the cheap grain from the grain dole? I think that perhaps he should have studied logic a little bit more in Greece, and a little less democracy."

You are speaking falsehoods. When smallholders work the Ager Publica - they grow wheat and food. When the rich plantations control the Ager Publica they grow vines and olives - not food at all, but luxuries with which to make money - that is why so many hunger, for good isn't being grown at all. Gneaus Cornelius Optitus was raised in said plantation, he have seen Romans in the cities, landless and dying in hunger and slaves working in the fields, growing vines and olive trees.

The urban poor ARE those who do not have land most of the time, The numbers of the urban poor will plummet if we enact Gracchii's reforms again.

There will be no limit placed on the territory that any one man can own. However, he will be obliged to rent part of his land away to smaller farmers, instead of letting it be worked by slaves. The exact details are not important now, but we could consider the size of one of these plots to be similar to the size of a farm in the Gracchii reforms. The landlord and his workers may choose to share certain amenities among themselves. At the end of the harvest, the workers will give to the landlord a predetermined amount of the harvest. The stability is maintained, as much of the current system can be kept in place. The Patriarchs will see a something of a decrease in their profits, but will still maintain control of their lands. The Plebs can work and be fed. Any increase in the cost of grain, due to a switch away from slave labor, will be made up for by requiring less of a grain dole.

The problems in your idea are these: The territory is not owned by anyone, but by the Republic. Whether it is the rich vine and olive plantations or whether it is the farming plebs, the land is leased, not sold. The second problem is - how do we force the rich to sell land to the plebs? Do we put a man in charge of every several acres? That is far too many. The third is - why would we have the plebs pay a higher rent on the land to the rich when the entire idea of the reforms was to give them lands with a lower rent? A plot that they can afford. Why would they buy it from the rich and have nothing to show for it?

The idea sounds like a good one, albeit the problems within are too much for me to support.

OOC: BTW you didn't vote yet.
Also Ah! I have more voters than provinces and armies and envoys to give! lol
BTW Is it true that we can only be voted consul once every 10 years?

 

[Grandkhan]

BTW Is it true that we can only be voted consul once every 10 years?

No, that would be ridiculous. 10 years is 20 turns. It might be in the historical Roman laws, but I'm ignoring that for the sake of gameplay.

 

[theDright]

Are you attacking my character? I have not hid in Greece, I was there under the pretense that I am studying. I had no idea my father is sending me to hide. If I had known I would have protested, and most likely would not have been alive at this point.

OOC: Didn't all Romans serve the army? So I did too, just that it isn't an important part of my character's life... Aren't we all at least 30 years old too, doesn't a senator have to be?

"I must have misheard accounts of your recent activities then. I was under the impression that most of your past decade in Greece had been spent hiding."

OOC: In the early Republic, all Romans did. After the Marian reforms not necessarily. I presume that everyone here has done some of the cursus honorum, ie military tribune, quaestor, and aedile before this date, but your character's 'studying in Greece' would displace most of that time. You've got to defend your credentials, publicly, otherwise you might as well not have any.

Are you denying that every Roman with ability has a Greek teacher for himself? The Greek culture is wise and progressive. They have vast philosophical knowledge that Romans love to learn. And yes, I did study tactics and Greek military, which is undoubtedly lesser than ours, but still, do you deny the importance of studying and learning?

"I do not deny that Greek philosophy is important for one to consider themselves an educated Roman. But wisdom and progression? Wisdom only comes from Roman law and piety. Progression come only from Rome. I do not deny the importance of studying and learning; I have been doing it all my life. But learning second-rate tactics and campaigning from conquered Greek philosophers seems less valuable than you claim."

You are speaking falsehoods. When smallholders work the Ager Publica - they grow wheat and food. When the rich plantations control the Ager Publica they grow vines and olives - not food at all, but luxuries with which to make money - that is why so many hunger, for good isn't being grown at all. Gneaus Cornelius Optitus was raised in said plantation, he have seen Romans in the cities, landless and dying in hunger and slaves working in the fields, growing vines and olive trees.

"I am not speaking falsehoods. Plantations grow what will sell. If the plantations are taxed, more than enough money will be available to support the grain dole. If the price of wheat, vegetables, and meat is high, more land will be allocated for their production. If Gnaeus Cornelius Optitus's father managed his plantation that way, I don't see why that should be taken as a general case. Certainly we would all have starved long ago if no plantations were growing grain."

The urban poor ARE those who do not have land most of the time, The numbers of the urban poor will plummet if we enact Gracchii's reforms again.

"The numbers of the urban poor will lessen surely. Urban poor still existed prior to Sulla's reforms surely? A grain dole is less affordable with the Gracchi reforms. You have frequently indicated that you don't consider the provinces to be safe regions in which to grant or encourage smallholder farms, and that these same smallholders would have to wait decades to receive the benefits of said farms. Provided a well-funded Legion and militia is in place, establishing a subsistence farm takes only a couple of years, less if work animals are included."

No, that would be ridiculous. 10 years is 20 turns. It might be in the historical Roman laws, but I'm ignoring that for the sake of gameplay.

OOC: The mod may not be, but I think that's up to us, the players. Sulla did reaffirm the 10 year waiting rule, which is traditional. Anyway, even if we do, an exconsul always has options open to him, ie proconsul or censor.

 

[theDright]

I, Gnaeius Oppius Marsicus, vote for Iustus Bruscius. [ekolite]

I would doubt any would have an easier time ruling Hispania Citerior province than I, having grown up there and tended to my father's .. my own estates there for the past two decades. Therefore, I would like to put my name on the plate for a governorship of Hispania Citerior, for the good of the Republic, her treasury, her citizens and Rome. The Celtiberii and Galaeciae need to be put in their place, and I believe I am the one to do it.

I hope I have not made any enemies in casting my vote here today. I was taught to vote on the issues by my- by my father. May the speed of Mercury bless this election peacefully.

"I would doubt that any is better than I for governor of Hispania Ulterior, where some of my family's estates are located, and where I was raised. I support Gnaeus Oppius Marsicus for governor of Hispania Citerior. Certainly no other candidates are as qualified as we two in the affairs of the Hispanian provinces."

OOC: Grandkhan, why don't we have the regular Roman provinces instead of the current ones? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_provinces We'd lose Italia, but gain another Hispania, Illyria, and Corsica/Sardinia. Italy would become SPQR territory, which would further justify the massive income available to those in Rome.

EDIT: "I, Servius Aemilius Celsus Arrianus, change my vote for the consulship to Iustus Bruscius." OOC: I've edited my original post as well.

 

[SamSniped]

Marcus Argetius Viator
It seems my words fall upon deaf ears. Why is this? I offer my thoghts, yet they are neither heeded nor listened to. I try to show people how our views are similar, yet they ignore my words. Very well then, not as if it matters. Regardless, I would like to request command of a legion to wage war with Pannonia, and governorship of a province, preferably one near Pannonia.

 

[erez87]

Marcus Argetius Viator
It seems my words fall upon deaf ears. Why is this? I offer my thoghts, yet they are neither heeded nor listened to. I try to show people how our views are similar, yet they ignore my words. Very well then, not as if it matters. Regardless, I would like to request command of a legion to wage war with Pannonia, and governorship of a province, preferably one near Pannonia.

Indeed it is within my plans to give you the third legion to lead the attack on Pannonia.

 

[Grandkhan]

OOC: Grandkhan, why don't we have the regular Roman provinces instead of the current ones? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roman_provinces We'd lose Italia, but gain another Hispania, Illyria, and Corsica/Sardinia. Italy would become SPQR territory, which would further justify the massive income available to those in Rome.

I've set up the Provinces specifically so there's an exact number and not everybody can get them. Thats why I got you guys to sign up in a pre-thread.

The provinces aren't changing for now, though you can split apart provinces or dissolve them into a single province by bill.

I'd rather you guys didn't abuse that so that everybody gets a province!

 

[Nintz]

Upon further reflection, Cassius will vote for Tiberius Tertinius Pachomius as it seems that Viator cannot win in any way, shape, or form.

 

[Grandkhan]

On that note, you have 12 hours left to vote. There's still a few people who haven't done it yet.

 

[talonschild]

As one who has been following the proceedings with some impatience, I make the present tally at Tiberius 7, Bruscius 6, and Viator 1. We have three uncast votes, those of Caesar (christos200), Marcus (germanicus12), and Aulus (Popcornlord).

 

[Popcornlord]

Aulus will vote for Bruscius.