King of the World #11: Darius I

[Neal]

re: Code of Laws- I know that it's the target. My question is, should I go the Priesthood route or the Currency route? The former is quicker, but I'm already on my way via the latter, and it does give me better benefits along the way. Though a Temple and Monastery would help out Eridu...

re: War- I agree that it's time to settle down. We need to consolidate our gains. Even though Asoka is SO CLOSE!

 

[Gagonite]

Aye, the Malinese Floodplains are a juicy target.. snatch 'em up before Hannibal. He's Financial AND Charismatic, those two are a great combination for big, wealthy cities.. don't want him getting too wealthy for his britches now do we?

And I vote for the CoL path. Knowing the AI, they'll probably get it soon enough, plus those courthouses will help you more than Currency will at this time, though Currency should be grabbed after. Plus, courthouses = espionage points, which will help you against your next target(s).

 

[IAM]

I cann't say it's a better stratagy but with my game play I'd go the quick route. Like you said Neal a temple and monastery are kind of needed in Eridu. At least you razed that North African city or you'ld have two cities desperate for culture.

 

[Matthew5117]

@Gagonite
Neal knows he's aiming for CoL. He's just wondering if he should research Priesthood->Writing to get CoL or should he research Writing->Mathematics/Alphabet->Currency to get CoL.

I say follow the Writing->Alphabet->Currency->CoL route instead of Priesthood->Writing. Also, I think its better to research Alphabet rather than Mathematics because you'll be able to trade Alphabet for Mathematics with someone, and also, that way you can trade your techs with other AIs (maybe hope for Metal Casting). I should also mention that Alphabet allows you to build Beakers. Once Currency comes along, you immediately get that +1 trade routes, and if your going on strike, you can build Gold along with Markets.

Besides, Priesthood and Writing you can't trade because the AI will already have it (that is if they have Alphabet).

 

[Shoot the Moon]

Are you planning on running two scientists once that library is up (both to help research and to get a GS)? In the long term, what is going to be your GP farm and what is going to be your Heroic Epic city?

You may need to war with India just to fill your coffers long enough to get to CoL.

 

[Ultimocrat]

I think you should go with the priesthood route to CoL -- or at least grab mysticism before going the currency route -- you need to be able to border-pop and libraries are a very slow way to do it.

 

[Matthew5117]

I don't think Mysticism is necessary. For starters, you got a Holy City that can spread religion (although, I will admit you can't build missionaries). Secondly, if you go the Currency Route, you can go that way via Alphabet and thus trade for Mysticism. Thirdly and lastly, a lot of the cities already have culture going and I doubt Neal's going to settle a ton more of cities in the next round considering his economy.

 

[CreeDakota]

I would want the ability to build missionaries to turn some members of the east buddist. HE may also want to start to plan for a GProphet for his shrine.

 

[Gwynnja]

We may be able to extort the inexpensive early religious techs from egypt and india. That would speed up the priesthood route. Math/Alphabet make a better self teching route, but obviously, they're more expensive. Since we're going to need currency and code of laws, why not tech currency first since it's one of the pre-reqs for CoL?

 

[Neal]

Two things.

First, after killing off Ramesses, I think I've eliminated the only real wonder-builder in our stable of opponents. The Oracle may not be totally out of the question. Figure Mysticism-Meditation (for Monasteries)-Priesthood and then put Persepolis on Oracle duty with Workers huddled around to chop it done? Even if we fail at Oracle, we can always tech CoL the old fashioned way. This leads me to my second point.

In terms of raw beakers, Mysticism-Meditation-Priesthood (190 on Normal) is a LOT cheaper than Mathematics-Currency (650). That's more than three times as much! Can we keep our economy afloat that long? Especially considering that we also have to pay for the not-cheap Code of Laws tech?

So, I guess I've done an about-face (I do that sometimes). I'm strongly leaning the religious route. The Oracle gambit might not work, but even if it doesn't, the research difference is significant enough that I feel it's probably worth it.

 

[Insanity_X]

and if you fail the oracle, there's always the failure cash to get you to code of laws that little bit earlier.

 

[UWHabs]

Yeah, go the religious route. If it was only currency-CoL, then I'd go that way. But throwing on math as well makes it a bit too long to try.

 

[r_rolo1]

About the Oracle, I have 3 words for you, just 3 words : Qui Shi Huang

 

[Matthew5117]

I support your decision Neal, its your game.

But like I said, if you go the Alphabet->Currency->CoL route, (you don't have to go the Mathematics route), you can build Beakers. That is what will sustain your economy until you research CoL. Even so, you also gain the advantage of tech trading. Plus the benefits of currency, +1 trade routes, markets and the option to build Gold.

However, like I said, its your game and I respect your decisions!

 

[Fei Kelei]

Inquiry: How far would you have to drop the science slider down to get positive cash flow? 20% research rate?

This is what I'm wondering. Pushing into India and trying to do a Keshik economy with Immortals might be fun, but I'm seeing (-42/Turn) at 1400 BC, so I'm thinking Neal's right that taking some immediate steps to fix the economy is the best option.

 

[Phil725]

First, after killing off Ramesses, I think I've eliminated the only real wonder-builder in our stable of opponents. The Oracle may not be totally out of the question. Figure Mysticism-Meditation (for Monasteries)-Priesthood and then put Persepolis on Oracle duty with Workers huddled around to chop it done? Even if we fail at Oracle, we can always tech CoL the old fashioned way. This leads me to my second point.

There are plenty of wonder builders left. Ramses is tied with Louis as the biggest wonder spammer, but there are still 3 civs on the map that are tied for second highest. Those being Asoka, Pericles and Pacal. Of those 3, Asoka is probably most likely to get the Oracle, since he favors the religious tech line, but I wouldn't rule out Pacal stealing it from the other side of the world. This doesn't even include the industrious Qin who you would also have to compete with.

I'm not familiar with how wonders usually fall on these earth maps, but given that group of wonder spammers, I can't see the Oracle falling much after 1000BC on immortal. And without having mysticism, the Oracle will probably go before you even research the prerequisites.

I also seem to be in the minority, but my vote would be for alphabet > currency > CoL. All of those techs trade extremely well, and your tech rate will rise after each tech. Just build research after alphabet, build wealth after currency and whip courthouses after CoL to completely recover your economy.

If you can trade CoL for currency, then it probably would be better to just go the shorter route, but in my experience, the AI doesn't usually go for it early enough for recovery from a drastic economy crash.

 

[huerfanista]

First off, Neal already has writing, which is a pre-req for CoL no matter which path you take. If it's assumed that myst needs to be taken ASAP for city growth regardless of the tech path, then math>currency costs 1400 more than med>PH (1260 more if he skips myst and goes directly to math>currency). Alpha>currency adds another 150 to that. So there's a huge difference in cost (which means time).

The upside of the alpha>currency>CoL path is that each tech enables you to get the next one, and all are good trade bait. Alpha lets you build research, so as long as you can make money at 0% or above (and I believe that ORG makes this possible with the current empire size), you can tech to currency by building research. Currency gives you a further increase in , which will get you to CoL. Alpha and currency are great trade bait, as long as you beat the AIs to them. So how far away is alphabet at a sustainable tech rate (we've got 5 turns left at 100% if we skip myst, and alpha takes 10 turns at the current rate )?

The upside of the myst>med>PH path is that it's way cheaper, it enables the Oracle (I agree with Rolo in thinking it's a pipe dream - Qin is IND and has marble at that juicy coastal site SE of Beijing, so I think you'll be lucky if it's not already built by the time you get to PH, which is more than 500 away). It also allows you to run a priest specialist to get a shrine (which will take a long time with 1 specialist and no GP-boosting wonder, and the pool heavily polluted with spy gpp). The downside is that unless you're very very lucky and can snag the oracle, none of these techs will add to your ability to tech to CoL in the way that both alpha and currency do. Teching CoL (980 ) while running at 10-20% on the slider will take forever, and you'll be left hopelessly in the dust.

Good luck!

EDIT: I see that Phil725 made pretty much the same points while I was typing.

 

[huerfanista]

OK, after loading the save here's what I see.

1. Whip that library for 3 pop in Babylon now, you already have 2 there and Babylon is producing no culture right now. Mecca also has no culture, so build a WB when the granery finishes and whip a library there as well.
2. You can get to alphabet in 32 turns on the money you have now by dropping the slider to 40%. After that, you can break even at 20% while building research towards currency, and trade alpha around for backfill.
3. Since you're currently building a bunch of libraries, drop research to 0% until a few of them complete. Binary research will get you to alphabet faster once you run your commerce thru libraries.
4. Alternately, you could go attack Ashoka to raise cash for research. That way, you could probably get to alpha in 12 turns, but I don't think you can afford to keep any of his cities (except perhaps Delhi, but it will hurt). Make sure you wipe him out before he gets that iron SE of Delhi hooked up.
5. Eridu is doomed. Athens has creative + stonehenge + shrine and is already stealing most of it's tiles. You'll lose it soon, and you should probably have razed it instead of keeping it.
6. Uruk is building a barracks??? You need a library there much more.
7. Get rid of those farms in Babylon (I think you're doing it now) as they just cause you to grow into too fast. It'll be a challenge keeping that city at the happy cap, so just cottage and whip into research once you get alpha.
8. Thebes is building another immortal??? You need a library there much more than you need more units, which increase your maintenance costs.

 

[Thomas G.]

none of these techs will add to your ability to tech to CoL in the way that both alpha and currency do.

Priesthood allows, with a temple, the cities to grow one more size. 2-3 extra commerce per city? Not quite currency, but give something.

Oracle will give either CoL or some cash (assuming you can start building it) for deficit research.

 

[Belisar]

There are plenty of wonder builders left....Asoka, Pericles and Pacal.

India has very low production and Pacal should be a backwards dwarf sitting in the jungle, my money for wonderhoging is on Peri who has not much good land to expand and sits practically on marble.

That said, don't wonder-gamble.