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King of the World #11: Darius I

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by Neal, Mar 24, 2009.

  1. Gagonite

    Gagonite Irishman

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    Don't forget Rome. Julius may not be the biggest wonder-builder, but he does have Marble in his capital's BFC, and Stone nearby. He also has plenty of production in Italy, so if he wanted a wonder, he could probably get it. Plus he has so much room to expand, he CAN spend a wee bit of time building wonders with his Capitol, since you know he's gonna have quite a bit of cities.

    Edit: Also, Neal, Have you considered trying out the BUG mod? It's wicked for keeping track of whipping, GG and GP points, as well as diplomatic stuffs.
     
  2. huerfanista

    huerfanista Emperor

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    I agree. Neal could have had a much better chance of getting the Oracle if he had set up the research path for it from the beginning (don't research IW, which is very expensive, and put off writing until after myst>med>PH). At this point it is a big gamble.
     
  3. Bowfish

    Bowfish Chieftain

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    I think that Eridu is in a need of culture improvement. I think that you'll need to get Meditation ASAP and build a buddhist temple there or Pericles' culture will hinder city's growth.
     
  4. DMOC

    DMOC Mathematician

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    Go the Currency + Code of Laws route. If I have expanded early, I can never think of a time where I would get CoL before Currency, unless an AI happened to randomly gift me CoL.

    Don't you have other wonder builders on the map like Qin Shi Huang, Gandhi, and De Gaulle? De Gaulle is crowded with Germany, the Dutch, etc. and so wonder building is his only choice. No Oracle.
     
  5. Matthew5117

    Matthew5117 Emperor

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    You didn't read the beginning did you? This is an ancient game, where ancient civs exist only. So no De Gaulle, no Germany and no dutch.
     
  6. Neal

    Neal King of the World

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    Hey, all. Unfortunately, I'm gonna be out of town for the next few days, and I won't be able to play the next round until Tuesday night at the earliest. My apologies.
     
  7. Fei Kelei

    Fei Kelei Pleased

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    You mean I might actually have to play a game for myself rather than just read about someone else's? I hope I remember how. :(
     
  8. Gagonite

    Gagonite Irishman

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    No worries Neal, life comes first o'course. Besides, we haven't quite decided which path is the best for CoL yet..

    My personal vote is for the Alphabet -> Currency route. While yes, the religious route is certainly easier, the upper route has some juicy techs. As noted before, Alphabet will allow you to trade for other techs (Even the religious ones) and Currency will boost your economy.

    But, on the other hand, you only really have 2 competitors for The Oracle. Julius and Qin Shi Huang. Julius has access to both stone and marble, but he's not very religious, so the chance of him going to Priesthood this early is fairly slim. Plus, he's probably working on a bigger, more grand wonder in Rome right now.. (Hint hint) Your other competitor, also having access to Marble, provided he's founded the city near it, which he probably has, is industrious. If he does snag priesthood early on (According to his XML personality, he favors Production the most, followed by Growth), then he can get it in no time. Everyone else doesn't really have the production to pull it off.

    If you DID get the Oracle, what free tech would you get with it anyways?
     
  9. Matthew5117

    Matthew5117 Emperor

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    If he got the Oracle, he would get the Oracle from the Priesthood->Writing Route.

    But remember, its extremely implausible that Neal will manage to build the Oracle. Immortal? Already 1400 BC? I'm surprised it has even been built.
     
  10. huerfanista

    huerfanista Emperor

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    Shadow games, and thoughts on the map:

    Spoiler :

    I dropped my previous shadow game (with the Khmer in SE Asia) and opted to start a new one with rolo's Khmer-less map. Things seemed to be going just swimmingly. I changed my strat and settled 1 north for an earlier rush, and this went well - Babylon fell just as Hammi was sending out his first settler. Next, I jumped on Sumeria. Gil was tougher, as he had CG2 archers, but I had too many immortals. This is where I made my biggest mistake - I let him live in his second city up in Turkey, figuring I could take him out later. I was hot to go after Rameses, who had founded Judaism. Ram had 3 cities: I kept Thebes (GW), and Heliopolis (on the coast NW of Thebes, the jewish holy city), and burned Memphis (I should have kept it, as Han settled soon after). Judaism was the most widespread religion on the map (everyone except Boudi - who founded Boudiism :lol: - and Rome - also boudiist - and Korea - confucian, which I founded). My early tech path was designed to grab the Oracle, so I went AH, wheel, mining, myst, med, PH, writing. I grabbed the Oracle and started whipping in cheap courthouses. Judaism spread to the capital, so I built a temple so that I could run a priest. This gave me a GP, which I sent towards Heliopolis (which had be revolting due to Greek culture + henge in Athens). As I predicted, Julius DOWed Greece, dropping Athens and eliminating the greeks just as I build the Temple of Solomon (thanks, Julie). All of this resulted in a booming economy: I was making a profit with 6 widely-spaced cities at 100% on the slider. :shocked:

    This is where letting Gil live came back to bite me. He founded another city on the copper N of Babylon and now had vultures and spears. He started spreading into Russia, and then DOWed me. By that time I had maces, xbows, cats, and wellis so I held him off easily, took peace, and then declared and took his nearby cities. Unfortunately, Qin had built the jewish AP, and started passing resolutions to stop the war and give back cities. I was not in a religion, since I wanted to keep Julius happy (he was pleased most of the game). I had a great economy going, though I missed lib by 5 turns to Ashoka because I detoured to feud/guilds/banking.

    Rome, however, had become a monster. He was gobbling up Gil's cities in Asia like nobody's business, and was teching very well. He had cuirassiers by the time I got to gunpowder, and he had vassaled everyone except me and the chinese. I gave up. This is what I had feared - an unchecked Rome expanding into asia. I had to bump the espionage slider to see his power rating: even though I was at parity (or better) than everyone else, I only had 0.5 of Rome's power. Despite building units like mad, he just pulled further ahead (I was at 0.3 when I quit). :(

    So I started a second game, taking desperate measures: dropping to emperor and planning to try to take out Rome before he could get spears from the German copper. Same start as before, and I quickly rolled over Babylon and Sumeria (taking Gil out completely this time) before DOWing Greece (it was the shortest path to Rome). I burned his city where Constantinople usually is and ignored Athens as I rushed into the teeth of the Roman empire. I immediately headed to the copper NE of Rome, which was hooked up already. Julius had 3 axes and an archer, but immortals don't fear no stinking axes. I pillaged the copper and took the city with just 4 units, winning every battle. Rome, however, had a single spear (along with multiple archers), which took out 1 of my immortals before I could kill it. Julius had a second city in France (grabbing the horses), so I was facing chariots and archers in a Rome that had unpillagable seafood. I sent a constant stream of units to Rome while my workers built a road there, but I couldn't take him out until I hooked up the copper myself and built a couple of spears to fend off the chariots. Eventually Rome fell (around 700BC), and I wiped out his last city in france (poorly placed), which I resettled in the usual Paris location. I then finally took out Athens (bye-bye Peri), took a barb city at Amsterdam, put a city in Spain, another in east Germany, another in eastern Russia, and finally one more in Turkey. So I have 12 cities and my economy is running great, amazingly enough. Despite missing the Oracle (I got caught up in the war and forgot to put some chops into it), the alpha>currency path got me to CoL with no trouble (I founded confucianism in Babylon). I'm the clear tech leader in 430AD, with the most land (Ashoka's starting to settle in Russia, so I'm going to keep expanding, and maybe DOW him soon). I beelined lit after CoL and built the GL in Paris. I've gotten good cash from wonder fails (parth, SoZ). I'm jewish, like everyone except China and Korea, so diplo is good for the most part (Qin DOWed me when I refused a demand for all my cash, but I beat him off with wellies). I now have CS and machinery, so lots of maces and xbows soon, engineering will be next for trebs and pikes, then some real war. :cool:

    About the map: I just don't think the Romans are stoppable unless taken out as early as possible, which is no mean feat. I didn't think I could do it at immortal, which is why I dropped to emperor. I think that Neal only has a brief window to right the empire (alpha>currency is clearly the way to go, and is very doable) before expanding like mad into Russia in order to limit Rome. I wish him the best of luck. This map is just way too generous to the Romans, and Julius has the perfect traits for leveraging his UU - IMP/ORG. It will be very tough to stop him from taking over the world.
     
  11. Matthew5117

    Matthew5117 Emperor

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    ^You might want to unspoil the advice you have given to Neal if you want him to read it.
     
  12. huerfanista

    huerfanista Emperor

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    I put it in a spoiler because I'm not sure he wants to read advice based on playing this exact scenario.
     
  13. r_rolo1

    r_rolo1 King of myself

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    I agree with most of what was said.... but i think that could had been easily solved ....
    Spoiler :
    The map that Neal is using has the Celts starting in Ireland. That is utter nonsense in historical terms ( celts got to ireland pretty late.... they even got to Turkey before getting to Ireland :p ) and gives all of the Super-filled-with-resources Europe to Rome ( because we know the tendency that AI have in this map to play OCC for a big while if starting in a island.... ). Celts starting somewhere between Berlin and Southern France would had give na more balanced game ( and more fun too: preatorians vs gallic warriors in a very hilly area ;) )
     
  14. huerfanista

    huerfanista Emperor

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    @rolo:
    :agree:
     
  15. huerfanista

    huerfanista Emperor

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    Here's a little entertainment until Neal resumes: my emperor shadow game entitled "Go West young emperor":

    Spoiler :

    So when I left off, in 430AD I was 1 turn from machinery. Engineering was next, and I build CR2 maces in Persepolis until it completed, and then trebs. I DOWed Ashoka and by 880AD I had Delhi and Pataliputra:

    After taking 2 more of his cities I capped him, leaving a buffer city between me and China. I razed 2 of his cities in Russia which were poorly placed, so that I could settle Moscow in the optimum spot.

    I was teching like mad relative to the AIs, and a settled GSpy was giving me tech visibility with all civs. Conquest money kept me in deficit research most of the game.

    Once engineering was in I beelined lib, planning to stop 1 turn from completion and pursue other techs depending on where the AIs were. I bulbed phil with a GS from Paris (where I had national epic). I also moved the capital to Babylon, a commerce monster with good production. Here are some shots of the empire in 1050AD:




    Unfortunately (or maybe not) I spaced out my plan to stop lib 1 turn short, so I just took nationalism, building the Taj in Paris. I traded for music (Ram or Han, I think), researched gunpowder and mil trad for cuirassiers, and DOWed Ramses just before 1200AD. By 1220AD he was my vassal, and his cities were quite a prize. Memphis was the jewish holy city (shrined), and Thebes had a bunch of wonders. He was pleased with me immediately. Hey, don't mention it Ram! Any time. :lol:

    Tech sitch in 1275AD:


    Remaining tech path was guilds, banking, pp, rep parts, rifling. I started building cavs everywhere to take out my 1 rival (not really :lol: ) - Qin, backstabber extraordinaire. My russian production center was coming online, massive hammer cities powered by SP. Post-rifling I went constitution (revolted to rep, FS, theo during the Taj GA), chem, sci meth, communism (built the Kremlin in Paris), steel, democracy (building SoL in Paris, partially completed by a GE that popped there), astro, physics. I DOWed Qin and sent 2 big stacks of cannon/cavs at him: the first smaller one thru eastern Russia (where he had lots of new cities that could be taken by cavs without seige), and the second thru eastern India into his core cities. He had the SoZ, which made it a bit painful, but now I have it. ;)

    This game has become something of a joke, since all he has to counter me are maces, ckns, knights, and lbows. Here's the tech sitch in 1550AD:


    Rome is overpowered on this map. Even though I had to claw my way there in a long and costly early war, taking europe enabled me to run away with this game. I don't think this could be done at immortal, which is why I dropped to emperor to pursue this strat. OTOH, if Rome is left alone, this is what he does to everyone else. So I think the map needs some serious modification. Celts in Europe would be a start, maybe along with some germanic tribes (maybe TMITs barb civ). ;)
     
  16. Ultimocrat

    Ultimocrat Warlord

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    regarding multiple posters thoughts on whether this map is balanced or not: is there a way to set up this map so the AIs play each other and the human has no role at all? As a quick-and-dirty cut, as the human player I moved Persia's starting settler to Easter Island in WorldBuilder and just hit enter, periodically re-opening WorldBuilder to see how different AIs were doing. It looked to me like Rome was pretty dominant, though Qin and SB were also developing huge empires. However, removing Persia clearly had a major effect on the powers in the Middle east, and made them much more powerful and able to resist Rome than they would be with Persia around.

    But in any case, given how easy Neal's early game has been, I think it seems only fair that he will face a very strong Rome later on.
     
  17. Fetch

    Fetch When in doubt, reboot.

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    I would add another civ as the human and move him to Easter Island, or wherever. Taking Persia out of play would affect your results bigtime. I do like the idea of having some sort of barb activity in northern Europe. Maybe just WB in a few barb cities after turn 50 or something?
     
  18. Gagonite

    Gagonite Irishman

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    You could always play as the Mayans or Native Americans and see how stuff goes in Europe, since you won't have any influence with them for a LOOOOONG time.
     
  19. jamesddd

    jamesddd Chieftain

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    i sorta edited my own version of this earth scenario to try to work a little balance. I moved boudica into her Earth34 starting position in southern france, so they can battle rome for European supremacy. I inserted Ragnar in scandinavia and also put Catherine in. I took out babylon to make the middle east less crowded and put in Shaka. I also put in the Mongols to help keep China in check a little bit. I replaced pacal with monty so i could see ultra aggressive monty vs ultra protective sb. Finally, i added the Incas in south america but leveled a couple of mountains so they werent stuck on the coast. So far this scenario has been really fun, especially with all these aggressive leaders/backstabbers in the game providing tons of world wars, but then again i'm only a noble-prince level player so who knows.
     
  20. Gagonite

    Gagonite Irishman

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    Well, you kind of ruined the 'ancient' theme now didn't ya? :p

    In reality, china has enough competition with Korea. Those two are neck and neck usually, with china's focus on growth matched with korea's powerhouse researching. As usual, Tokugawa sits just off the coast picking his nose and making mean faces at his neighbors. If only he actually KNEW how to settle on different islands better! :mad: Whenever they make Civ5, they better fix the AI..
     

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