KoS4 - Something more casual (?)

[timmy827]

Got it. Love the stacks of 6 and 7 draft anger

Sorry about the stacked draft anger, timmy827 - previous posts advised to draft 3 rifles every turn so that was what I was trying to do, I was under the impression that increasing our power level was more important than keeping our population happy. Sorry if I overdid it - I did try to spread the drafting around and draft from cities that were less angry.

I wasn't being sarcastic; that was indeed exactly what we wanted.

 

[Mutineer]

Just watch our power, so it does not fall too low from gifting riffles. So, may be a little bit more draft if any spare happiness available, globe city is there anyway.

Common Nappy, do your thin! ;0

 

[kossin]

Roster for good measure:

5. timmy827 - UP
6. Tatran - On deck

After that it falls to me unless bbp is back. Hopefully the game is over before it comes back to me

 

[timmy827]

Played 11. Question: Can we just kill Zara?

Yes, that breaks the variant rule but the current situation is absurd and farcical; mlinneak wasn't kidding about Nappy sitting on his butt. Zara has three units (LB/cat/phant) in Aksum and we keep bombarding it to 0%; Nappy has sent failed attack forces of 1 rifle and 2 xbows/1 pike during my set, while he marches hordes of gifted rifles and trebs around aimlessly. This has turned into a chore.

Whichever way the team answers, I'm pretty indifferent about playing out the next 4 turns or giving it Tatran.

Also, Pacal adopted FR and slipped to Cautious (maybe I made a mistake by refusing a gift request of RP). To get him back on board, need to gift him a tech for Pleased, then can pay him back to OR. I think he's the highest in soldier count (should have demo visibility in a couple turns) so he may still not accept peacevassal (we may be 2x his power, but he will be above average even after Zara dead).

 

[Stochastic]

Well I'd prefer to avoid breaking the variant, I think doing that would count as a loss. But I understand that it is getting a bit silly. Maybe we could take a cease fire and try getting Hammy and Pascal on side first?

Does anyone know why Nappy is being obstinate? Could our mass of troops around the city be causing some mysterious problem with his path finding (I don't know anything about the civ code)? Does he need more troop because he's worried about Mansa?

 

[Mutineer]

Did you gifted him a bit more riffle and some GP/turn?

Ok, I will explain Nappy stack behavior.

When AI create Sod, it get assigned behavior AI.

Only 2 assignments are related to as.
Assigment one: take city.

Assigmen 2 : Pillage stack.

Pillage stack will not attack city. My guess this 4 rifle stack is assigned as pillaging. As zara has nothing to pillage, thsi stack just sit in place and wandering aimlessly.

So, in order For Nappy to send out attack stack we need to gift him units in position when he collecting attack stack. It is usually one of border cities, look which one has max units.

But again, AI probably will not take city if it is in financial problem. Nappy took bunch of cities, so he might be.

So, gift him additional 10 gp/turn, gift him 5-6 riffles and ask him to attack . (or may be ask to attack before and after gifting units).


Idea of variant is to investigate what makes Vassals tick and how to make them to do our biddings.
So, gift him units and ask him to attack city.

 

[Mutineer]

Ok I open save and see rifles stack in addis abba.

well gift Nappy 10 gold/turn and ask him to attack.

 

[kossin]

You can play the last 4 turns. Gift PP to Nappy, he already has spare gold, hopefully that will be enough to have him move his SoD.

Be careful gifting too many units too Nappy as he might actually end up being the second strongest AI... that would make it more difficult to peace-vassal other AIs.

Nice settler parties!

 

[timmy827]

OK will try that (unfortunately can't until tonight). Sorry Mutineer, I realize I overlooked you giving basically the same advice earlier; I have gifted him additional units but not GPT. What has confused me is Nappy's other stack that just moved out of Gondar appears to be heading towards Mansa despite me telling him to go after Aksum.

There was also a cultural revolt in Addis Ababa which seemed to make him pull units back. Perhaps I will move our army in there (IIRC any units help suppress flip chances).

@Kossin - how would Nappy becoming 2nd hurt vassal chances? I thought more gifting would be ok, as long as we stay 2x power of the ones we want to vassal.

 

[Tatran]

There was also a cultural revolt in Addis Ababa which seemed to make him pull units back. Perhaps I will move our army in there (IIRC any units help suppress flip chances).

Too late. When a revolt has taken place the city can flip any turn.

 

[kossin]

^^Needs 2 revolts to flip.

"You've grown too powerful for us" might happen if Nappy becomes too strong I think. That would force us to war on the last 3 AIs rather than 2/3 quick vassals.

 

[Tatran]

^^Needs 2 revolts to flip.

Are you saying a captured city needs 2 revolts after being pacified to flip back?
Where can I find that info?

 

[kossin]

Every city needs 2 revolts in order to flip, but captured cities will never flip back to the original owner.

It was found in the code sometime, not sure where though

 

[kossin]

Alright, I looked at the code a bit (my first time!) ...

GC.getGameINLINE().getAdjustedPopulationPercent((VictoryTypes)i);
				if (400 * getTotalPopulation(!isAVassal()) > 3 * iThreshold)
				{
					return DENIAL_VICTORY;
				}

				if (!atWar(getID(), eTeam))
				{
					if (400 * (getTotalPopulation(isAVassal()) + GET_TEAM(eTeam).getTotalPopulation()) > 3 * iThreshold)
					{
						bPopulationThreat = true;
					}
				}
			}

			bool bLandThreat = true;
			if (GC.getGameINLINE().getAdjustedLandPercent((VictoryTypes)i) > 0)
			{
				bLandThreat = false;

				int iThreshold = GC.getMapINLINE().getLandPlots() * GC.getGameINLINE().getAdjustedLandPercent((VictoryTypes)i);
				if (400 * getTotalLand(!isAVassal()) > 3 * iThreshold)
				{
					return DENIAL_VICTORY;
				}

				if (!atWar(getID(), eTeam))
				{
					if (400 * (getTotalLand(isAVassal()) + GET_TEAM(eTeam).getTotalLand()) > 3 * iThreshold)
					{
						bLandThreat = true;
					}
				}
			}

			if (GC.getGameINLINE().getAdjustedPopulationPercent((VictoryTypes)i) > 0 || GC.getGameINLINE().getAdjustedLandPercent((VictoryTypes)i) > 0)
			{
				if (bLandThreat && bPopulationThreat)
				{
					return DENIAL_POWER_YOU;
				}
			}
		}
	}

Basically what this means is "You've grown too powerful for us" is a function of land+pop, not power... therefore civs stop peace-vassaling once you become too close to winning Domination.

Seeing as we already have 41% of land and that Zara should die any minute+MM capitulation, it looks like we're going to have to win by force.

This is problematic in a way however: if the vassal does more damage to the target than the master, capitulation is discouraged meaning we have to finish off the target >.<

So... we'd have to kill the SoD's fast before our vassals have the time to do too much damage and hope for quick capitulation.

 

[Tatran]

Every city needs 2 revolts in order to flip, but captured cities will never flip back to the original owner.

Until further proof, I'll stick to 1 revolt like it happens in my sologames.
You can successfully surpress revolt chances military before the first revolt, but
after that it's a matter of turns you'll lose the city.

 

[kossin]

Sure... it's just not necessary if it's a captured city however. For those to flip you need to check a box under custom game.

 

[Stochastic]

Did you gifted him a bit more riffle and some GP/turn?

Ok, I will explain Nappy stack behavior.

When AI create Sod, it get assigned behavior AI.

Only 2 assignments are related to as.
Assigment one: take city.

Assigmen 2 : Pillage stack.

Pillage stack will not attack city. My guess this 4 rifle stack is assigned as pillaging. As zara has nothing to pillage, thsi stack just sit in place and wandering aimlessly.

So, in order For Nappy to send out attack stack we need to gift him units in position when he collecting attack stack. It is usually one of border cities, look which one has max units.

But again, AI probably will not take city if it is in financial problem. Nappy took bunch of cities, so he might be.

So, gift him additional 10 gp/turn, gift him 5-6 riffles and ask him to attack . (or may be ask to attack before and after gifting units).


Idea of variant is to investigate what makes Vassals tick and how to make them to do our biddings.
So, gift him units and ask him to attack city.

Thanks for the nice, concise explanation, I never realised that the AI units were so one track minded

Alright, I looked at the code a bit (my first time!) ...
[...snip...]
Basically what this means is "You've grown too powerful for us" is a function of land+pop, not power... therefore civs stop peace-vassaling once you become too close to winning Domination.

Seeing as we already have 41% of land and that Zara should die any minute+MM capitulation, it looks like we're going to have to win by force.

This is problematic in a way however: if the vassal does more damage to the target than the master, capitulation is discouraged meaning we have to finish off the target >.<

So... we'd have to kill the SoD's fast before our vassals have the time to do too much damage and hope for quick capitulation.

Ok, I think I must be reading the code incorrectly (I've only worked with matlab and r which seem like quite different languages from this) because it looks like the land owned by a vassal counts 400 times what your land does for the bLandThreat tests But I thought that vassals counted for less than their actual value for the Domination victory X2? I guess it doesn't help that I'm guessing at what all the different functions mean.

If vassal land actually does count as less, maybe we could gift some cities to Nappy, though it looks like that would push us towards the cutoff for the two DENIAL_VICTORY options which sound bad, so we would have to be careful. But, I'm probably totally wrong though misinterpretation!

On a note for which I can probably be a bit more sensible, I don't think the war should pose too many challenges as long as we get cannons. I figure that we will just get an SoD hanging out near the border and pulp whatever comes across, Nappy probably won't do much and Mansa certainly won't!

 

[Mutineer]

I would not give nappy any cities, We might reach domination just by absorbing ex Zara land culturally and vassaling Mansa.

 

[Stochastic]

Oh right, I totally forgot that that was a victory option for us. Now who is one track minded...

 

[timmy827]

Until further proof, I'll stick to 1 revolt like it happens in my sologames.
You can successfully surpress revolt chances military before the first revolt, but
after that it's a matter of turns you'll lose the city.

Load up a game where you have a city under pressure, check "chance of revolt" as you move garrison units in/out of the city. I'm sure you get suppression before and after first revolt.