Kyriakos vs. Vincour

[ori]

Kyriakos requests a review of the 1-point warning he received for this post.
The conversation between him and Vincour is quoted below as forwarded by Kyriakos.

Hi. It is about a 1 point infraction for "trolling", that Vinvour gave me. Here is the pm discussion we had, including the post and thread, and our presented points.
Pls examine if it is worth reviewing, and if merit lies with one or the other view. I conclusion, let me say that i don't mind if the 1 point stands, of course, yet i was alarmed by it because i was certain my post was very well within moderating limits for a non-rd thread, and contains no heavy language ("simplistic views" isn't taboo).

Thanks

PM discussion between me and Vincour follows:

1. Kyriakos,
   
   Your message (Britain is leaving the EU) contains inappropriate content:
   This thread went off-topic and bizarro fast. Topic is the brexit. Keep your simplistic evaluation of Greece for some more relevant thread.
   As a participant in the thread, it is not your responsibility or right to dictate the terms of the discussion. Your third sentence can be considered trolling. Please keep in mind civil debate etiquette.
   
   Remember that since you are a willing participant in any debate, you are able to exit the discussion at any point. Insulting your debate peers and their assumed perspective is unnecessary and against the rules.
   
   Thanks,
   Vincour
   
   Debate Humanity - My Blog!
   Vincour, Yesterday at 11:54 AM Report
   Reply
2. 
   Kyriakos Alien spiral maker
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   Wait, do i remember you from somewhere?
   
   Λέων μὲν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δὲ βοῦς, ἄνθρωπος δὲ νῷ
   "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
   Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC
   Ask me to 3d-model stuff: http://www.upwork.com/o/profiles/users/_~01df321eaa8a6a0a69/
   CivIII
   my graphics library 30x 1x Decade Award
   Kyriakos, Yesterday at 2:02 PM Edit Report
   Reply
3. 
   Kyriakos Alien spiral maker
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   Hm, nevermind. Given you gave me a point (shouldn't you say so in your pm?), can you ask if it was indeed outside non-RD etiquette to post as i did? I think it will benefit you as well in your new role, and if you are correct it will benefit me in getting to realize that the rules for non-RD were way harsher than i thought.
   So, ask a mod, or (if it has to be more typical), ask for the decision to be re-evaluated. In my view the latter might be better, so as to get a more official answer. So, ask for your decision to be evaluated. Thanks ^_^
   
   Λέων μὲν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δὲ βοῦς, ἄνθρωπος δὲ νῷ
   "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
   Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC
   Ask me to 3d-model stuff: http://www.upwork.com/o/profiles/users/_~01df321eaa8a6a0a69/
   CivIII
   my graphics library 30x 1x Decade Award
   Kyriakos, Yesterday at 2:05 PM Edit Report
   Reply
4. 
   Vincour Junior Moderator Junior Moderator
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   Kyriakos,
   
   You are right that I should have listed the exact number of points in the PM instead of just in the mod note. My apologies for that mistake.
   
   The infraction itself stands, however, and I will reiterate the point that if you are finished discussing something, you are able to and encouraged to stop replying without a last-second quip. In particular, your observation over the assumed lack of complexity of everyone else's opinion on Greek policy and the country's place in the EU was inappropriate especially when placed alongside a comment attempting to dictate the terms of the discussion.
   
   You were a willing participant in the discussion about Greece and it is not up to you to end that discussion for everyone while also insulting them. If you are unwilling to accept a difference in opinion, again, you are able to and encouraged to stop replying. Insulting others and attempting to restrain their choice of discussion can be classified as trolling or inappropriate behaviour.
   
   Thanks,
   Vincour
   
   Debate Humanity - My Blog!
   Vincour, Today at 4:57 AM Report
   Reply
5. 
   Kyriakos Alien spiral maker
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   It's ok that you view it that way, yet can you post your decision on the mod forum so that we can have a more official decision as to whether it was off-line in a non-RD thread? I specifically asked you to do this. The procedure (i haven't used it in years, but know it exists) is that you make a thread there and older mods evaluate your action. Can you do that? (don't view it as an attack on you).
   
   Λέων μὲν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δὲ βοῦς, ἄνθρωπος δὲ νῷ
   "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
   Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC
   Ask me to 3d-model stuff: http://www.upwork.com/o/profiles/users/_~01df321eaa8a6a0a69/
   CivIII
   my graphics library 30x 1x Decade Award
   Kyriakos, Today at 7:42 AM Edit Report
   Reply
6. 
   Vincour Junior Moderator Junior Moderator
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   Kyriakos,
   
   My decision is an official decision. You've yet to explain how you disagree with my decision, only that you do. I'm willing to hear you out but won't stand in the way of your desire to jump straight to the appeals process.
   
   If my explanation is unacceptable to you, you are welcome to begin the appeal process with a super moderator as described here. The link for finding super moderators is broken in that post so below is a list of current super moderators that you can contact about this.
   
   Super moderators - ori, Rob (RX8FT), Lefty Scaevola, Methos, AlanH, Bootstoots
   
   Thanks,
   Vincour
   
   Debate Humanity - My Blog!
   Vincour, Today at 7:54 AM Report
   Reply
7. 
   Kyriakos Alien spiral maker
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   Ok, i will reply in more length, though i think it is your own official duty to start the process - i mean, you chose to accept being a mod, i am not bound to spend time on official site procedure other than officially ask for it.
   The thread is not RD, this means that site etiquette makes it less harshly moderated.
   My response was not against "everyone else"; that much is obvious. It wasn't made specific to any poster out of a mixture of courtesy and the view that it would be petty bickering.
   I still could express that i view some opinions there about my country to be simplistic. I doubt that "simplistic" is a taboo term to use in this forum, and in a non-RD thread, Synsensa.
   
   With all that said, i now would like to make it clear that (afaik) as a junior mod it is your duty to make it known to the super moderators that i asked for your decision on this to be reviewed, and (afaik) provide them with our discussion here in pms.
   
   Again, it doesn't matter if the point stands - who cares. Yet it is a good opportunity for me or for you to learn more officially if this kind of (in my view anodyne) post deserved to be infracted by current site rules. Ok?
   
   Regards, pls notify me when you have started the procedure with a super mod,
   
   K
   
   edit: Oh, and congratulations on your new role, it doesn't matter that i ask for re-evaluation of your decision; well done
   
   Λέων μὲν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δὲ βοῦς, ἄνθρωπος δὲ νῷ
   "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
   Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC
   Ask me to 3d-model stuff: http://www.upwork.com/o/profiles/users/_~01df321eaa8a6a0a69/
   CivIII
   my graphics library 30x 1x Decade Award
   Kyriakos, Today at 8:02 AM Edit Report
   Reply
8. 
   Vincour Junior Moderator Junior Moderator
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   Kyriakos,
   
   As linked to you, the appeal process is not begun by a moderator. If you wish to have an infraction reviewed, the responsibility is yours to begin that process by contacting a super moderator.
   
   In response to your defense, I am not inclined to change or revert the infraction. You were infracted in a non-RD context, meaning that pointing out the thread was not RD is an irrelevant counterargument.
   
   Again: It is not your responsibility or your right to attempt to dictate the terms of a discussion. If you are uncomfortable with a thread's discussion, you are encouraged to gracefully exit and cease participating. The discussion in question was about Greece's impact on the EU and the policy surrounding that. When users made negative observations about Greece, your response was to attempt to hijack the thread (telling others what to talk about) and to then provide a blanket statement denigrating all other participants in the discussion and their knowledge of Greece.
   
   Furthermore, the discussion about Greece was one that you openly and willingly involved yourself with. The subject was not one forcefully thrust upon you.
   
   In the future if you are under the belief that a thread has been severely derailed, you can report the thread and allow a moderator to make a judgement call on that matter. Additionally, you are asked to instead leave a thread quiet and/or respectfully instead of insulting other members in your exit.
   
   Describing a viewpoint as simplistic and then explaining how is fine. Getting upset with the way things are going, leaving the thread, and making sure to get a last word in to tell everyone their views are simplistic is not. As mentioned, it is not proper debate etiquette and can be classified as trolling or inappropriate behaviour.
   
   To reiterate, if you are still of the opinion that the infraction is incorrect and would like to have it reviewed, you are welcome to start the appeals process as outlined here.
   
   Thanks,
   Vincour
   
   Debate Humanity - My Blog!
   Vincour, Today at 8:22 AM Report
   Reply
9. 
   Kyriakos Alien spiral maker
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   Ok, send them this series of pms too when asked. Noting that, in my view, you could have been more helpful and/or able to identify my own pov.
   
   Λέων μὲν ὄνυξι κρατεῖ, κέρασι δὲ βοῦς, ἄνθρωπος δὲ νῷ
   "While the lion prevails with its claws, and the ox through its horns, man does by his thinking"
   Anaxagoras of Klazomenae, 5th century BC
   Ask me to 3d-model stuff: http://www.upwork.com/o/profiles/users/_~01df321eaa8a6a0a69/
   CivIII

edit:

I'd rather not publish the pms in the Site Feedback. It would be a needless show, imo. For me too, but also for Vincour, who likely doesn't need it (as junior mod, just became a mod, and -afaik from old posts of his- rather sensitive with such issues.

Thanks Again, i wouldn't start this procedure (broke my 4 or more year streak of not asking for this, i think ) but i did want a final (or final-ish) answer as to whether moding strictness has become more severe than i thought it was in OT.

regards,

Kyriakos

 

[ori]

As I was part of the discussion that resulted in this warning I am recusing myself from this appeal.

 

[leif erikson]

The problem here is what standard are we using to decide whether this is appropriate or not. I am still unsure how to decide what is considered spam, trolling or flaming in a non-RD thread in OT.

 

[Bootstoots]

That's because the lines are vague and hard to define. I'm never quite sure myself and just have to make decisions on a case-by-case basis, as is pretty obvious in my opinion here.

Although I favored this infraction initially, in retrospect it does seem mild enough to be allowable in a non-RD thread. It appears to be a response to the preceding two posts:

What FRAUD ? Nope nothing here move along !
Besides Greek Not-Fraud is the EU fault, EU forced the Greece to cook its books, forced the Greeks of all the EU countries to get into so much debt and borrow so much.

Like I said I agree, the Iceland model would have been ideal solution for Greece.

' Your honour, it's not my fault I submitted false figures to get on the dole! The devil made me do it!'

I'm sure the EU also 'forced' Greece to build prestige projects - like a state of the art train connection that was primarily used by highly paid train conductors. Bad EU Nazis!

1) There's no Iceland model
2) If there were, it wouldn't solve Greece's self-inflicted debt problem. (Apples may look a bit like oranges, but if you want an orange, you don't eat an apple.)

Both of these posts are within the limits of a non-RD thread too, but I don't think Kyriakos' response is substantially more aggressive or trollish than either of these. Calling someone's opinions simplistic is allowable in a non-RD thread, and saying that some issue should be argued somewhere else is allowable too. I've fairly often seen people make posts during side-arguments saying that the side issue belongs in another thread, and that's generally okay. That doesn't mean that they get to dictate the course of the thread, of course, but they're allowed to opine that some argument belongs somewhere else.

All this said, I'm very much in favor of Vincour jumping in head-first and he's doing an excellent job in general. But in this particular case, I'd favor overturning the infraction.

 

[leif erikson]

Would support Boots' position and vote to overturn.

 

[Camikaze]

I would generally agree with that evaluation of the post. It does not appear to me to be rule-breaking within the context of a non-RD thread.

However, there's a question of whether that actually arises for determination. The forum rules state the following in relation to an appeal:

Posters should include the following with a request for review. Failure to include all of this information may result in your request being denied out of hand.

• Reference to infraction in question.
• All previous PMs regarding the infraction.
• Why you think that the infraction is wrong.
• What outcome you are seeking.

I can't see evidence of any of these in his request for a review of the infraction. Theoretically, the idea is that a poster should essentially specify some grounds of appeal, which we can then evaluate. Posters shouldn't just hand us up an infraction they don't like, without any attempt at outlining why they think it is wrong.

If we search for those grounds of appeal within the PM exchange with Vincour, the primary argument Kyriakos is putting forth is that Vincour is a junior moderator, who apparently should therefore not dare to infract him without a preliminary inquiry conducted by more experienced site staff. That this is his primary complaint seems to be confirmed by his PM to ori initiating the appeal, in which he doesn't mention why he thinks the infraction is wrong, but does mention that Vincour is a junior mod (which he bundles with a rather arrogant personal assessment of Vincour's disposition, which frankly says much more about Kyriakos than Vincour). Of course, Vincour answered these arguments perfectly, pointing out that his decision is just as binding as any other moderator's decision, and that Kyriakos was not due any extra special process simply because the infraction had been issued by Vincour. I would add for the record that Vincour had heard the opinion of another moderator before acting, although in the end that's irrelevant to the infraction, because contrary to what Kyriakos seems to be suggesting, it's in no way required.

We should make absolutely clear to Kyriakos the appeals process does not exist so that he can simply demand to 'speak to the manager', because he doesn't think he should have to deal with a lowly junior moderator. The appeals process exists so that he can appeal an infraction on its merits. He has failed to do so. In a usual case I would be very much inclined to extend a poster some latitude in the form of their appeal. But in this case, Kyriakos has set about the appeal with such disdain for Vincour's capacity to make a decision and the appeals process in general, that I don't think it would be appropriate to treat his appeal as anything other than incompetent or ill-founded.

I would therefore not vote to overturn the infraction as a result of this appeal. I would, however, suggest that the OT supermods discuss the infraction further with Vincour, who is then free to make his own decision as to whether to keep it in place or not, bearing in mind that the OT moderating team, of which Vincour is an equal part, is best positioned to determine the relative standards for RD and non-RD threads.

 

[Bootstoots]

Of course I completely agree that the condescending way that Kyriakos treats Vincour here is unacceptable - his decisions are every bit as official as anyone else's barring Thunderfall. He should be set straight about that, in no uncertain terms. In his PMs, what he should have done is to simply argue that his post is within non-RD limits without making any reference to how new Vincour is, rather than immediately telling Vincour to post a thread in staff to have other mods evaluate his decision.

That said, though, Kyriakos does give a real reason for reviewing this infraction: that the behavior is in fact within non-RD standards. All four bullet points are technically met. He tells us what infraction he is referring to, gives the full PM chain, includes a brief explanation of why he thinks the infraction is wrong ("i was certain my post was very well within moderating limits for a non-rd thread, and contains no heavy language ("simplistic views" isn't taboo)."), and asks for us to evaluate it to see whether this is indeed not acceptable.

It might be better, though, to handle this within staff by reopening that infraction thread and let him know that I've thought about it and changed my mind about whether the post really is within non-RD standards, and that there's currently no consensus within the appeal thread. I'll lay out my case, others can chime in, and he can decide whether to reverse or let the appeal continue. This would also allow ori to rejoin the discussion if he still thinks that the post is infractible.

He's been doing an excellent job so far, and I don't want to discourage him with a public overturning of his first infraction, especially given Kyriakos' behavior here. So, should we do it that way?

 

[Camikaze]

I'd missed that first brief PM actually; thought he'd just sent what's in the second quote block to ori. Given that, I suppose he has scraped through with the bare minimum requirements. As such, I think there probably is enough consensus about whether the post is rule-breaking to come a decision without remitting it for further consideration outside the appeals process. I don't think there's a good enough reason to depart from the proper process, given the appeal request is competent.

 

[Browd]

One condition of an appeal is that the appellant has "made a genuine attempt to resolve their concerns with the relevant moderator via private messages." Based on my review of Kyriakos' conversation with Vincour, I'm not convinced that he made any effort to engage with Vincour -- he leapt immediately to an appeal -- and what engagement he did engage in was dismissive and condescending. I would agree that his post seems borderline infractable (although that is where moderator judgment comes in), but I would dismiss the appeal on the grounds that he hasn't made the requisite effort to resolve the issue with Vincour before pursuing an appeal.

 

[Bootstoots]

He did eventually offer this, in PM 7. There are other little snippets, but this is Kyriakos's main argument:

The thread is not RD, this means that site etiquette makes it less harshly moderated.
My response was not against "everyone else"; that much is obvious. It wasn't made specific to any poster out of a mixture of courtesy and the view that it would be petty bickering.
I still could express that i view some opinions there about my country to be simplistic. I doubt that "simplistic" is a taboo term to use in this forum, and in a non-RD thread, Synsensa.

It seems to me that their PM exchange did contain a bit of a discussion about the main substantive issue related to the infraction, on which they did reach an impasse - specifically, on whether Kyriakos's post was appropriate for a non-RD thread.

Of course it's buried in there among the jibes that implied Vincour's decision was somehow illegitimate and needed to be backed up by senior mods, and even calling him by his old username in the quoted post. Still, it did seem that the conversation had reached an end with Kyriakos not convincing Vincour that his post was within non-RD standards, and Vincour did then indicate that he was holding is ground, that Kyriakos was welcome to appeal, and showing him the right procedure.

I would love to dismiss this case on a technicality, given that I strongly urged Vincour to plunge right in rather than just wading in slowly, that I initially supported the infraction, that he has been doing a great job, and that Kyriakos is being a complete jerk in his trademark passive-aggressive way. But I think the minimum requirements for an appeal have been met, and I don't think I can justify dismissing this appeal on procedural grounds.

 

[ori]

I will let Vincour know that the infraction should be reversed then and prepare this thread for publication.

 

[ori]

This thread was edited prior to publication by adding a link to the infracted post and removing a link to the infraction itself (the latter is not accessible to general users). Other than that no edits of the appeal were made.

The conversation in the first post remains as a later message to me by Kyriakos stated that he had no objections to the publication.