Last known cavalry charge

[TheLastOne36]

I assume this thread already covered the Polish cavalry charge against panzers.

i think not, lets discuss this more.

 

[ace99]

Well at the battle of krojatnany the Polish cavalry brigade charged a German panzer group that they thought were dummy tanks and managed to pull off an indecisive engagement.

 

[TheLastOne36]

Except that never actually happened.

Cavalry was used often by all partakers of the war. One of my Great-Uncles led a cavalry unit himself where their sole goal was to ride up in small groups towards nearby German tanks under forest cover, dismount, launch a panzerschrek, then mount and take off before German infantry could retaliate.

I believe the Russians and Germans had much more cavalry than Poland did as well.

 

[Flying Pig]

Furthermore, the photo of Polish cavalry charging tanks is misleading - the cavalry charged infantry, and were driven off when the Germans threw in tanks to get rid of them.

The history channel had video of cavalry being shot at by tanks? I know they're unreliable but are they fabricating things now too?

If it was the same event, I would hazard that the German tank crews weren't sporting enough to simply intimidate the Poles into running away!

 

[ace99]

The history channel had video of cavalry being shot at by tanks? I know they're unreliable but are they fabricating things now too?

 

[Ajidica]

The history channel had video of cavalry being shot at by tanks? I know they're unreliable but are they fabricating things now too?

Are you sure the Poles were being shot at by Nazi tanks, or was it Nazi aliens?

Anyhow, actual history question: How would you summarize in a paragraph the causes of World War I, taking into account the rather touchy Anglo-German relations? I got into an argument with a friend over that but I realized I wasn't communicating my point well as I was trying to merge together several mega-posts by Dachs that were only half-remembered.

 

[Domen]

The history channel had video of cavalry being shot at by tanks? I know they're unreliable but are they fabricating things now too?

"Kampfgeschwader Lutzow" was a German propaganda war movie made in 1941 - such a Nazi equivalent of "Saving Private Ryan":

Here is the Polish cavalry charge scene from this movie:


Link to video.

Another scene from this war movie:


Link to video.

The entire movie can be found here (I think users from Germany will see a "this video is banned in your country" message):


Link to video.

Well at the battle of krojatnany the Polish cavalry brigade charged a German panzer group that they thought were dummy tanks and managed to pull off an indecisive engagement.

Nope. Germans had no tanks in the area. There was a motorized infantry division there - 20. Infanterie-Division (mot.) - which had no tanks.

Read the article written by Raúl Mantulak:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=92001&start=30

Krojanty the end of the myth.

Fall Weiss - From the border to the Brahe River.

At midnight the last report arrived up to the Division informing that the troops had occupied its positions. At 03:00 hours the batteries informed to be ready to receive fire missions. On the border they were IR 76 (Oberst Gollnick) to the right and IR 90 (Oberst Kraiss) to the left; IR 69 (Oberst Fischer) 2 km in front of Schlochau as reserve.

At 04:45 hours the artillery unleashed its programmed fires (60 grenades by battery) and with that cover the infantry crossed the border.

Mosnitz the first town was taken and shortly after in Mosnitzwald at 05:30 hours after crossing the border a patrol of Polish riders was annihilated. Gefr. Meier. The first shock was against the Platoon of ppor Jan Sasa which after interchanging shots withdrew fulfilling orders of the Rtm Jan Lados.

The 7. and 8. /AR 20 took up fire positions due east of Mosnitzwald near Henningsdorf and opened fire on opportunity targets. At 10:00 hours IR 76 went to the attack towards the burning town of Lichnau and conquered it around 10:45 hours. Gefr. Deike. After taking the locality the batteries were emplaced due southwest of Lichnau/Lichnowo.

In the meantime the AA 20 (Oberstleutnant Schonfehld) received the task of carrying out a reconnaissance on the right flank due east of Frankenhagen/Silno. There the Detachment verified that the position in the chained lagoons (Seenengen) was strongly defended. Here it fought against the antitank Platoon of por. Roman Ciesielski, who was killed during the action.

Northwards the I./IR 90 (Traut) found strong resistance in Height 179 due north of Konitz and could conquer the objective with the support of the II. /AR 20 (Major Wagner). The II. /IR 90 (Holm) and the III. /IR 90 (v. Holwegel) attacked due south of Konitz turning later to the north. Plk Mastalerz ordered to his regiment to fall back on the Pawłówko-Pawłowo-Racławki sector where he deployed the 1, 2 and 4 Squadrons whereas the 3. Squadron organized itself on the line Nowa Cerkiew-Sternowo; in Sternowo was the 2. /11 dak too.

In the south, in Zamarte, Kpt Krafft withdrew towards Tuchola, pushed back by the increasing enemy pressure, uncovering the South flank of the 18 Pul. The Uhlans Regiment began its withdrawal on the highway Konitz/Chojnice – Rytel around 12:00 - 13:00 hours. At 14:00 hours when the situation had worsened, the Commander of the GO " Czersk" had ordered to leave the locality (Chojnice) and to fall back on the Brda/Brahe river.

While the IR 76 had continued pressing towards the route Konitz - Rytel and its reserve battalion (I./IR 76) covered the regiment’s right flank. Towards noon the infantry assaulted Gross-Plagnau, that locality was conquered at 14:25 hours.

Around 16:00 hours plk Mastalerz received the order to delay the German advance in order to allow the withdrawal of the infantry brought by the Ops Officer of the GO “Czersk”. In order to carry out the attack Plk Mastalerz could count with four squadrons and one bicycle company of the BK „Pomorska” (8. szwadron kolarzy) plus the squadron of light tanks TK (13 machines).

Meanwhile IR 76 had received a new objective: Krojanty. At 17:00 hours Konitz was occupied (IR 90) and at 17:05 hours the artillery opened fire on Neukirch/ Nowa Cerkiew.

The assault echelon was under Maj Malecki with the 1º Squadron (Rtm Świeściak) and 2º Squadron (Rtm Lados) which had to march by Kruszka - Pawłowo - Krojanty to fall on the flank or enemy's rear area. While the 3º and 4º Squadrons were to furnish fire support deployed on the line Sternowo-Lotyń. At 17:00 hours the Company TK (light tanks) seeing impossible to participate in the maneuver joined the 3º Squadron on the route Chojnice - Rytel. The assault squadrons marched about 10 km with a Platoon in the lead (ppor Uranowicz) and reached Pawlowo as planned (19:00 hours).

The forest in front of Krojanty had been reported free of enemy and the companies were not get across the route Konitz - Rytel yet when the advanced parts received intense hostile fire and at least two Polish cavalry squadrons (taking advantage of an interval between the II. /IR 76 and the III. /IR 76) charged against the battalion in the old usage (saber in hand). All the arms were pointed towards the attackers and under a rain of fire the attack was broken and the Poles fled. Shortly afterwards the objective of the day: the railway line Krojanty - Jablonne - Kruschke was reached.

Out of the 250 Uhlans who took part in the charge, 25 perished (among them Plk Mastalerz, ppor. rez. Mlicki the Official of Intelligence, Rtm Świeściak - Leader of the 1º Squadron; Rtm Godlewski the Regimental adjutant saved his life after being covered by his horse which was killed. According to some authors, Plk Mastalerz did not fall in the charge but when he went ahead to hurry the supporting fire of his own machine guns and died in the subsequent exchange of fire.

At 14:00 hours the IR 69 had crossed the border with the mission of relieving to the IR 76, reaching the crossing of the Brahe River by Rytel. The battalions advanced by Pawlowo towards Neukirch and continued astride the highway Konitz - Dirschau. The IR 69 had its baptism of fire in Neukirch; the III. /IR 69 (Serini) fought in the wooded land along the route to Rytel, the II. /IR 69 (Bumiller) reached Sternau. The IR 76 was assigned as reserve of the Division. The IR 69 fought then against the support echelon of the 18 Pul (3 and 4 Squadrons, the light armored company of reconnaissance TK and the cyclist squadron (kolarzy). Here a fire which started in Sternowo caused serious damage in the horses of the 3. Squadron and its holders.

At 20:00 hours the company TK fell back from Nowa Cerkiew attacking a German convoy (of the III. or II. /IR 69) which allowed the withdrawal of the 3./18 Pul. At 20:00 hours the Rtm Ertman received the order to maintain at all costs the western edge of the forest in the area Jakubowo-Jeziorki in order to avoid that the Germans could gain Rytel on September 01. The 3. Squadron moved on the highway Chojnice - Rytel and behind it withdrew the cyclist squadron with the wounded. Covered by the 4. Squadron the 2. /11 dak fell back and occupied new position due south-east of Młynków. Finally with the cover of the 3. Squadron the 4 fell back to Rytel.

At 23:30 hours the 2. They /San Kp 20 established an Aid station in Konitz.

So I conclude that:

Myth the 18 Pul attacked the tanks saber in hand – Fact: the German had not tanks in the area.

Myth: the cavalry charge surprised a German infantry battalion at rest – Fact: the German battalions advanced towards a new objective. The Germans casualties were minimum.

Myth: in a curve of the route, the Poles ran head on with German light armored vehicles – Fact: AFAIK the AA 20 was deployed on the flank due east of Silno. On the contrary, they were the Poles who had light tanks.

Apparently the charge was repelled with the concentrate fire of all the arms of the German battalion; considering the relatively few losses suffered by the Poles.

 

[Flying Pig]

Nope. Germans had no tanks in the area. Read the article written by Raúl Mantulak:

http://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=92001&start=30

I can only find this article on two internet forums, published by a user under his real name, which gives it the same level of reliability as one of my own articles. From a bit of reading it's clear that the 'tanks' were in fact Armoured Personnel Carriers, but the assertion that the Germans were at rest when charged seems to stand up. Again, the 'myth' is that Polish cavalry charged into close combat with tanks: the cavalry at that time were specifically armed with anti-tank weapons so as to be able to engage armour from a distance.

 

[ace99]

The video I saw clearly show a cavalry guy interrupted in mid charge by some sort of small tank or armored vehicle with a machine gun bursting through a bush firing a machine gun that was mounted on top of it. It had no turret so it might have been an APC. Anyway the cavalry guys scattered, turned around and fled.

 

[Domen]

And by the way the last known cavalry charge during WW2 was in 1945.

The last known cavalry charge in history was in Afghanistan in 21st century (by forces of the Northern Alliance).

The video I saw clearly show a cavalry guy interrupted in mid charge by some sort of small tank or armored vehicle with a machine gun bursting through a bush firing a machine gun that was mounted on top of it. It had no turret so it might have been an APC. Anyway the cavalry guys scattered, turned around and fled.

Sorry, but I have to ask about it - did you read my post above? I already posted this video.

It is from a war movie made in 1941. Not an actual frontline footage.

It had no turret so it might have been an APC.

When the charge at Krojanty (by 18th Uhlan Regiment) took place, 20th Reconnaissance Battalion (Aufklarungs-Abteilung 20) was conducting a reconnaissance in force on the right flank of the German division near the village Sitno - and clashed against Polish 35th Infantry Regiment there.

20th Reconnaisance Battalion was the only unit of German 20th Motorized Infantry Division which had armoured vehicles.

So no - Germans did not have any armoured vehicles at Krojanty.

On the other hand it was the Polish cavalry which was supported by some reconnaissance tankettes.

 

[Flying Pig]

I have to say, I was a bit surprised at the thought of a video being filmed in the middle of any battle, especially without the helmet cameras that some people bring to Afghanistan nowadays.

 

[Domen]

Exactly. I know about the existence of only one video filmed in the middle of an actual battle (rather than before or after) from the Polish campaign. And it shows some Polish platoon or even smaller unit of cyclists getting under fire of a German ambush and taking cover in nearby roadside ditches.

You can find this video on You Tube as well (as you can see the cameraman was rather pretty safe on the top of that hill):


Link to video.

Not a very "spectacular" or dramatic battle scene though. Unlike those from the Nazi movie made in 1941.

====================================

Again, the 'myth' is that Polish cavalry charged into close combat with tanks: the cavalry at that time were specifically armed with anti-tank weapons so as to be able to engage armour from a distance.

Exactly. In case of Polish cavalry - they had anti-tank guns Bofors calibre 37mm and anti-tank rifles calibre 7,92mm.

From a bit of reading it's clear that the 'tanks' were in fact Armoured Personnel Carriers

But - it seems - that at the time when the charge took place all those armoured vehicles were fighting at Silno - 10 km away.

So could not participate in repulsing the charge. Here is a map:

Spoiler :

==================================

Regarding "Kampfgeschwader Lutzow":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_German_films_of_1933–1945#1941

Battle Squadron Lützow One of the last films made by Hermann Braun (1918-1945) prior to being drafted and killed in combat.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermann_Braun

 

[Domen]

I believe the Russians and Germans had much more cavalry than Poland did as well.

Actually the Russians had more cavalry also in the Polish Campaign of 1939 than Poland.

There were 13 Soviet cavalry divisions fighting in Poland after 17.09.1939 (6 in Belarussian Front and 7 in Ukrainian Front).

By comparison as of 31.08.1939 the Polish army had in total 11 cavalry brigades (and one improvised brigade was organized during the campaign).

The German Wehrmacht had only 1 cavalry brigade in the Polish Campaign.

 

[r16]

didn't the Wehrmacht have cameramen as troops , regularly deployed at the front lines ?

 

[Domen]

I know they installed video cameras in aircrafts, but I didn't hear about any "regular troops as cameramen" in ground forces. The German newsreels were not made by "troops" but by filmmakers - and there are little scenes from the actual combat there, if any (the "front lines" does not mean "the battles").

You have - for example - scenes from the artillery and aerial bombardment of Warsaw, but not from the actual street combats.

Without helmet cameras (mentioned by Flying Pig) or minimization of film equipment in general, I don't think it is possible.

Of course installing video cameras capable of filming air duels in aircrafts, is somehow much easier.

Today even the Talibans have access to much more modern technologies than anyone in WW2 - co can also film their own videos from battles:


Link to video.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I can only find this article on two internet forums, published by a user under his real name, which gives it the same level of reliability as one of my own articles. From a bit of reading it's clear that the 'tanks' were in fact Armoured Personnel Carriers, but the assertion that the Germans were at rest when charged seems to stand up. Again, the 'myth' is that Polish cavalry charged into close combat with tanks: the cavalry at that time were specifically armed with anti-tank weapons so as to be able to engage armour from a distance.

I know this isn't the case, but I immediately envisioned some poor sod who tried to fire his Model 35 from horseback, and was thrown backwards from the blast!

 

[Domen]

In total Poland had 11 cavalry brigades, but there were very few cavalry charges in September 1939, cavalry fought dismounted 99% of the time.

For example Wielkopolska Cavalry Brigade carried out only one mounted charge (against some outpost of enemy infantry) at Gajowka Demboskie on 16.09.1939. The charge was successful and only 2 or 3 soldiers died on the Polish side in that charge. Here all of the charges are listed (in Polish):

http://www.forum.ulani.pl/viewtopic.php?t=20

Gajówka Dembowskie - 16. 09.
Pluton 4. szwadronu 17. Pułk Ułanów Wielkopolskich natarciem w szyku konnym zmusza nieliczną placówkę niemiecką do opuszczenia stanowisk.

Regarding overall mortal casualties of Wielkopolska Cavalry Brigade in the 1939 campaign:

Killed, died of wounds and missing recognized as dead of Wielkopolska Cavalry Brigade (daily breakdown):

4 IX - 1
7 IX - 2
8 IX - 3
9 IX - 1
10 IX - 94
11 IX - 35
12 IX - 16
13 IX - 4
14 IX - 36
15 IX - 4
16 IX - 42
17 IX - 75
18 IX - 32
19 IX - 97
20 IX - 13
21 IX - 3
22 IX - 2
24 IX - 1
25 IX - 6
26 IX - 5
27 IX - 1
28 IX - 3
30 IX - 1
1 X - 1
4 X - 2
7 X - 1
9 X - 1
10 X - 2
11 X - 1
12 X - 1
13 X - 1
17 X - 1
26 X - 2
13 XI - 1 (wounded on 27 IX)
1 XII - 1
14 I 1940 - 1
Unknown date - 35

Total: 528

On 10 September the brigade started its participation in the battle of Bzura, on 20 September it broke through to Warsaw.

Guys who died in October and later are all died of wounds (the brigade fought until 28 September 1939, when Warsaw surrendered).

 

[Flying Pig]

I know this isn't the case, but I immediately envisioned some poor sod who tried to fire his Model 35 from horseback, and was thrown backwards from the blast!

At a guess, they probably worked a bit like Civil War era dragoons - moving to the battle on horseback, dismounting and fighting as light infantry, then withdrawing to fight somewhere else as required.

 

[Domen]

Exactly.

And some soldiers were used as horsekeepers - keeping the horses in the rear area of the brigade, while the rest of the units were fighting.

Still the horses and the horsekeepers could potentially suffer significant casualties when under artillery fire or aerial attacks.

Or when the defensive lines got broken and the enemy penetrated into the rear area.

 

[r16]

I know they installed video cameras in aircrafts, but I didn't hear about any "regular troops as cameramen" in ground forces.

am positive that they had special units , maybe platoons maybe bigger , to take footage from frontlines . Say , Americans did the same but theirs were normal movie people in uniform in order not to be noticeable , snipers and all .