Lawyer to Sue Jews for Biblical 'Plunder'

[Turner]

Lawyer to Sue Jews for Biblical 'Plunder'http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=573&ncid=573&e=4&u=/nm/20030911/od_nm/egypt_jews_dc

By Opheera McDoom

CAIRO (Reuters) - An Egyptian lawyer said Wednesday he was planning to sue the world's Jews for "plundering" gold during the Exodus from Pharaonic Egypt thousands of years ago, based on information in the Bible.

Nabil Hilmi, dean of the law faculty at Egypt's al-Zaqaziq University, said the legal basis for the case was under study by a group of lawyers in Egypt and Europe.

"This is serious, and should not be misread as being political against any race. We are just investigating if a debt is owed," Hilmi told Reuters in a telephone interview.

The relevant passage from the Bible, Exodus 12 verses 35 to 36 reads: "The Israelites had done as Moses told them; they had asked the Egyptians for jewelry of silver and gold, and for clothing. ... And so they plundered the Egyptians." This translation is in the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible.

Some Jewish commentators say that while the Biblical passage may be fact, the Hebrews were enslaved by the Egyptians and therefore had a right to claim compensation for wages.

"Hilmi's assertion that the Hebrew Bible is fact has given Israel and Jews the world over a reason to rejoice. He has opened the door for all Jews to sue Egypt for over 400 years of slavery," writer Beth Goodman told Reuters.

Tareq Zaghoul, a lawyer at the Egyptian Organization for Human Rights in Cairo, said it would be difficult to prove historical fact in the passage that would stand up in court.

"This needs historical documents and evidence to back it up. It is rather far-fetched," he said.

Hilmi said Egyptian and European historical and religious experts were trying to establish if the biblical passage could be taken as fact, and hence form the basis for a lawsuit.

He said the argument that Jews could sue Egypt for enslaving them was also being studied by experts.

Hilmi gave no details of which court he planned to file the case in or whether he thought such a case would be exempt from the sort of statute of limitations that in many countries rules out legal cases after a certain period of time.

He also declined to put a value on the goods "plundered."

I really don't know what to say to this. . . it can certainly set an interesting precident if it goes through.

 

[Plexus]

Yea, saw it a few weeks ago. It is absurd to sue for these 'stolen' goods (ie. The sins of the father should not be passed on to the son).

 

[Hawkster]

This could open the flood gates - not just from the Bible but throughout history - where would it end!

I very much doubt anything will come of it...at least I hope so. Still it keeps the lawyers busy

 

[greenmtnsun]

Statue of limitations? MY GOODNESS!

Plus, they only reason they got plundered was because of their greed and horrible treatment of slaves that saved their but 400 years earlier.

They seem to be asking to have Jews sue them for the slavery of 400 years!

I believe in the Exodus, I believe the bible. I can't believe someone would be so, hmm, what's the word, "absurd" maybe, as to try to sue over that.

My bet is that it will never materialize into even a trial.

In Christ,

Keith

 

[PresidentMike]

Well, seeing as how the Exodus is a fictional story with no historical or archaelogical evidence (outside the Bible) to back it up, I'd say that nothing was ever "plundered" in the first place: hence, no case.

Off course, even if there had been an Exodus, there would be no case. I wonder how these "lawyers" plan to collect a settlement?

 

[G-Man]

The Israeli foreign ministry organized a response to them. Sue us on the plunder and we'll sue Egypt on anything wrong it has done to us since the beggining of history.

 

[greenmtnsun]

They actually dignified it with a response?


As for Exodus... Can you do me a favor and prove to me that George Washington was the president of the United States?

 

[Pongui]

Originally posted by G-Man
The Israeli foreign ministry organized a response to them. Sue us on the plunder and we'll sue Egypt on anything wrong it has done to us since the beggining of history.

The Israeli Foreign Ministry has no sense of humour. That's one really cool response on their part. Great, more hostility.

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Sean Lindstrom


The Israeli Foreign Ministry has no sense of humour. That's one really cool response on their part. Great, more hostility.

I'm sorry, I can't see the humour in Egypt's racist propoganda.

 

[PresidentMike]

Originally posted by greenmtnsun
They actually dignified it with a response?


As for Exodus... Can you do me a favor and prove to me that George Washington was the president of the United States?

You mean *apart* from the tens of thousands of independent sources (including the man's own letters) and mountains of archaelogical evidence, including Mt. Vernon?

If the Israelites were kept in bondage in Egypt for any length of time, we'd see Egyptian language and culture rub off on them, and vice versa. There is no evidence of this. No Egyptian pharaoh proclaims this great victory over the Israelites on any temple, tomb or monument. In fact, the first mention in history of "Israel" is in 1213 on an Egyptian stela in which a pharaoh gives a long list of Levant tribes that he beat up; Israel gets a one line mention. Nor is there any evidence in the Sinai of wandering tribes (archaelogists have looked) or of the Jewish invasion of the promised land. The story itself very closely resembles stories that had been circualting in the ancient Near-East long before the Exodus tale ever appears.

In short, there is no evidence outside of the Bible to back this up. Even the Five Books of Moses, supposedley all written by Moses and which tell the story, were written by different people long after Moses was "dead."

Don't take it personally though: I don't believe anything in Genesis either.

 

[Pongui]

Originally posted by G-Man


I'm sorry, I can't see the humour in Egypt's racist propoganda.

Read the article and you'll see they're also working on the equally perverse case of Jews vs. Ancient Egypt. I wouldn't call one lawyer at an Egyptian university (taking the pharaoh's side) doing what lawyers do so famously in every part of the world, "Egypt's racist propaganda".

It becomes political when the Israeli Foreign Ministry issues an official threat to the state of Egypt.

 

[FredLC]

As a lawyer, what I have to say is:

First, the bible is not a reliable historical source. Despite the many religious confrontations that exist over its veracity, fact is that no courtroom would fail to realize it.

Second, even if we assumed that the bible is true, it's too vague. A legal request does not need to be exact, but it's absolutely crucial that, after the bases of the case are decided, that such accuracy can be achieved. Therefore, it would be necessary hat we had a list of everything that was plundered, the evaluation of their values, and the tracking of their locations, so we could get them back or at least calculate a compensation.

3rd - Such plunder was not taken against the Egyptian government. Hence, it's not the entity that would have active legitimacy to pursue a legal action. That could only be done by the descendents of those who were stolen. Giving gold to the Egyptian treasure instead of the stolen people would be only to move the harm to another place;

4th - It would be necessary to prove that there was a legitimate law forbidding them from stealing at that time, because of the principle of "nullum crimen, nulla poena sine lege" (there is no crime, nor penalty, without law), and that, if they manage to convince anyone that people should be bound by restrictions on a legal system that gave them no rights.

5th, the current Israel authorities have nothing to do with the ones back then, nor they ever represented them or condoned them. So, they also would have to sue the descendents of the ones that did the stealing, as the Israeli Government would not have passive legitimacy to be in that case. Now, good luck to Egyptians tracking them down.

6th - There is no legal system that does not recognize the passing of time as a source of changes in ownership of goods, even those illegally achieved. Those institutes, in a poor translation from brazilian portuguese to english (as I unfortunately don't know how they are called in it), would be named prescription (the loosing of the prerogative to pursuit a certain right in the legal system) and decadence (the loosing of the right itself).

Now, considering how long ago it ws supposed to have happened, both prescription and decadence would have operated a long time ago, possibly would have operated dozens of times if it were possible.

7th - as many said, if we fail to recognize that, than we should recognize the right of the Israelis to sue because of the years in slavery. I assure that it would be a very bad deal for Egypt. I can only imagine what kind of punitive damages would 400 years of slavery generate.

Hence, my conclusion is: That suggestion is plain stupidity. I don't know how any lawyer, or any official entity, can be so silly as to propose that.

There are people on this earth who really need to get the upper floor checked, if they actually have one after all.

Regards .

 

[Hamlet]

I was going to post regarding the total rational as well as legal idiocy as this, but Fred has already said it, and probably a lot better than I would have, with my megere legal expertise.

 

[thestonesfan]

Is this guy for real? This is ridiculous!

The reason they were there in the first place (which no one can even prove) is because they were slaves! While he's at it, maybe he should sue them for the locusts and plague too!

 

[e_a_olson]

Isn't there a statute of limitations for such acts?

 

[G-Man]

Originally posted by Sean Lindstrom
Read the article and you'll see they're also working on the equally perverse case of Jews vs. Ancient Egypt. I wouldn't call one lawyer at an Egyptian university (taking the pharaoh's side) doing what lawyers do so famously in every part of the world, "Egypt's racist propaganda".

It becomes political when the Israeli Foreign Ministry issues an official threat to the state of Egypt.

This lawyer is employed by the Egyptian goverment, as are many of the others who support him. It's just the last link in a chain of racist propoganda spread by the Egyptian goverment and its different branches and it's time someone will start putting some pressure on them to stop this.

 

[Lefty Scaevola]

I wonder how much the countercalim for generations of slavery would be.

 

[Moonsinger]

The relevant passage from the Bible, Exodus 12 verses 35 to 36 reads: "The Israelites had done as Moses told them; they had asked the Egyptians for jewelry of silver and gold, and for clothing. ... And so they plundered the Egyptians." This translation is in the New Revised Standard Version of the Bible.

The keyword here is "asked". They asked and the Egyptians gave! Basically, the Egyptians were saying "here...take whatever you want and get out of our land ASAP". Of course, after all of the egyptian first-borns were killed by God, they were willing to give anything just to get the Israelites off their land. In a way, they were blackmailed by God, and they should be suing God instead. On the other hand, God did send Moses to ask them kindly first to let his children go, but they rejected God offer over and over again...so in a way, it was a punishment from God (but then again, God already knew all along that they were going to reject his offer...so why ask for something you know for sure that you are not going to get?...you could argue that God masqueraded the whole deal and used the Egyptians as pawns to teach humanity a lesson or he was just simply an evil God or whatever). So basically, I think it comes down to "can anyone sue God?"

 

[knowltok2]

Fred, while your response was well reasoned and thought out, I think you go a little far in your assumption of what the courts in Egypt will go on regarding normal westernized due process and jurisprudence.

The comment on getting the top floor checked though is spot on. It would appear to relate to more than just the person bringing th suit.

 

[FredLC]

Well, I certainly can't tell for sure that they have the same legal guarantees that are held in the western world. However, even if their legal system allows that crazy cause to be successful, they still will have to require authorizations from the supreme courts of the western nations to execute whatever penalties they find in their sentences.

What i know about international law, than, tells me that no supreme court will grant that permission (as in validating a foreign sentence in their own territory), unless it fit's their own legal system. For example, a condemnation for imprisonment for fraud from an Iraq tribunal would probably be confirmed by Brazilian Supreme Court; now, one to cut off the hands of a thief would not, as also wouldn't one to imprisonment of an adulterous woman.

If they are unwilling to follow the procedures accepted by the nations where the people they want to get lives, well, than let them condemn. It won't make a difference, because they will never be able to execute their decision.

Regards .