Leaders

[Ahriman]

The "American Dream" mod, for example, does its thing by silently making a UB out of the Palace for that civ with the "trait" abilities, but it makes things awkward by having two entries for "Palace" show up in the Civilopedia.

The only way something like that wouldn't be awkward would be to embrace it and have every civ have a free "Unique Palace" with America's White House, Germany's Reichstag, etc.

That's a good idea, but I imagine there are still really limits to what you can do with buildings.

 

[Sneaks]

You can do a LOT more with buildings than Traits at the moment. For some reason, the devs decided to have as much specificity for certain variables as humanly possible. For example, in the Traits xml, there is the Incan movement bonus on hills Trait. However, it is hardcoded in as bonusinhills rather than bonusinterrain - hills.

Another great example is that there are both Great General and Great Scientist rate modifiers, but there is no code for Merchants or Artists. The coding in a lot of these files follows similar suit. Inflexible and rushed.

 

[Txurce]

You can do a LOT more with buildings than Traits at the moment. For some reason, the devs decided to have as much specificity for certain variables as humanly possible. For example, in the Traits xml, there is the Incan movement bonus on hills Trait. However, it is hardcoded in as bonusinhills rather than bonusinterrain - hills.

Another great example is that there are both Great General and Great Scientist rate modifiers, but there is no code for Merchants or Artists. The coding in a lot of these files follows similar suit. Inflexible and rushed.

Quit posting and get back to work on WWGD!

 

[Common Sensei]

You can do a LOT more with buildings than Traits at the moment. For some reason, the devs decided to have as much specificity for certain variables as humanly possible.

This is true, it opens up a few more options. The aforementioned "American Dream" mod, for example, replaced America's trait to +1 bonus gold and culture per specialist. That would have been impossible with the current possible base trait parameters.

 

[Thalassicus]

Good point Common Sensei. I really should sit down and test if giving Arabia a percentage trade income modifier will stack properly with Macchu Pichu... been on my todo list a long while.

I tend to be a lazy procrastinator hoping they'll release the full SDK so I don't have to do cumbersome workarounds.

 

[Common Sensei]

Good point Common Sensei. I really should sit down and test if giving Arabia a percentage trade income modifier will stack properly with Macchu Pichu... been on my todo list a long while.

I tend to be a lazy procrastinator hoping they'll release the full SDK so I don't have to do cumbersome workarounds.

I can relate.

 

[Txurce]

I just noticed that my Japan still has no option for a Shrine. Did it replace the Temple? I still have that, giving 4 culture and two slots.

 

[Seek]

I just noticed that my Japan still has no option for a Shrine. Did it replace the Temple? I still have that, giving 4 culture and two slots.

It's a Monestary replacement, but the graphic is not changed, so it could be easy to overlook. You should be able to build it in any city with a lux within it's borders.

 

[Txurce]

It's a Monestary replacement, but the graphic is not changed, so it could be easy to overlook. You should be able to build it in any city with a lux within it's borders.

Thanks... but if it works with any resource - not just wine and incense - then it's not there.

 

[Thalassicus]

Thanks, I'll look into it!

Edit: Odd, I don't see what the problem might be... will do some testing.

Edit: It's working alright for me. You might have an older dev version where I was playing around with resource requirements... you might need an improved resource nearby to build it.

In the current version it can be built anywhere after you have the Theology tech. The concept is based off Arabia's Bazaar: somewhat useful in general plus boosts luxuries if any are nearby. The reason for this is how commonplace it is in Japan. (The 22 you can get in any city is a large shrine in the city itself, with the +1 per resource type a representation of numerous smaller shrines housing kami in various manmade objects or features of the landscape.)

You can basically update to the current version by finding this in BL - Replacements.xml:


<Building_LocalResourceOrs>
...
...
</Building_LocalResourceOrs>


Add comments around the whole block like this and save the file:

<!--<Building_LocalResourceOrs>
...
...
</Building_LocalResourceOrs>-->

 

[Txurce]

It's working alright for me. You might have an older dev version where I was playing around with resource requirements... you might need an improved resource nearby to build it.

All my resources are improved, so that wouldn't be it. It's weird, since I've played with America and England successfully. I'll make the switch, but am too far into the game for it to matter much.

 

[Thalassicus]

While glancing at the Babylonion trait of "Ingenuity," a word popped into my mind for the Ottoman trait:

Dominion (n)
1. the power or right of governing and controlling; sovereign authority.
2. rule; control; domination.

It also sounds cool.

 

[Ahriman]

I don't think it would make sense for "Dominion" to give GPPs.
"Dominion" has connotations of rule imposed by force from above; it doesn't have connotations of support for poets and philosophers and thinkers, which is more what we're going for here.

This seems to summarize the flavor we want:
http://www.hpdst.gr/bibliography/multicultural-science-ottoman-empire

Maybe:
Scientific tradition, Philosophical tradition, Enlightened Tradition?

 

[Thalassicus]

That's actually why I chose the word, it's intentional. I should've crossposted this from the combined thread first.

Whoa a lot of discussion today, it's great!

I agree it would be good to find a phrase that refers to the Ottomans in a more general sense. Administrative maturity and military conquest were traits of their society, not just Suleiman alone.

On that subject, it's worthwhile to remember the trait also affects great generals, and is therefore very powerful for warmongers. The Ottomans are famous for conquering the last remnants of the Roman Empire and formed a huge nation spanning centuries. The "lawmaker" name has this militaristic vibe to it... making laws through conquest. Both the society and leader demonstrated these characteristics. I'd like any name we come up with to represent this, in addition to the administrative aspect.

I think I might clarify that point in the trait description. Alternatively I could go with "Governance," the first word I came up with, though I feel "Dominion" sounds stronger and more powerful. I think I'd be happy with either, and both are an improvement on the more person-specific "Lawmaker."

 

[Ahriman]

That's actually why I chose the word

I'm not saying "Dominion" isn't decent for representing an aspect of Ottoman society/history/administration, I'm saying that "Dominion" doesn't make sense for an ability that gives GPPs. Being a stern but effective Imperial manager doesn't give you more great artists, poets, philosophers, scientists and thinkers. You get that by having a tolerant, enlightened society that allows for freedom of expression and supplies patronage funding to these people.

If they had some kind of organizational bonus that reduced unhappiness from number of cities, then Dominion would be a decent word for that. Maybe: 25% reduction in unhappiness from number of cities.
But I don't think it fits with the ability you've given them.

 

[Sneaks]

I as well dislike dominion. It has too much negative connotation to really make sense with great people. I would focus on the bureaucracy end instead or their strong cultural assimilation.

 

[Txurce]

It was mentioned earlier by Sneaks that "scribal bureaucracy" was the administrative engine that made the Ottoman empire run, and that this bureaucracy was known as the "Men of the Pen." I think it sounds catchy, it's not singular, and clearly refers to lawmakers, diplomats and planners. While "Dominion" is as apt as, for example, "The Sun Never Sets," I like "Men of the Pen" better.

 

[Polycrates]

Hey Thal, just looking at the replacements for air and naval UUs, and while I agree that the B17 and Zero are just too late, too time-limited and too minor (love the Shinto shrine btw), I can't agree about the Ship of the Line, which I think is a great UU.
Sea power is actually pretty good in this version of civ, and frigates are the first unit where it starts to show some serious teeth. Unlike land units, they utterly demolish anything that comes before them, and they're also the only combat naval unit for an entire age - two ages if you discount ironclads (which have their serious limitations and are only really an incremental increase anyway). So the Ship of the Line makes you untouchable at sea in a way that no single unit can do on the land. It's also almost as powerful as an ironclad but much faster and with better sight, and with the promos that you'll have racked up should be able to take them out with ease.

Any sensible English player is going to focus on the sea anyway to make the most of their trait, and not just on archipelago maps - even on large continents maps there's an awful lot of land within two tiles of coast. And once you've got naval dominance you can hit all these tiles with near-impunity and strike at cities using ships as ultra-mobile artillery and then move the marines in for the kill. This thread is what got me interested in the English, and I agree with it. The Ship of the Line works with the trait to make England a real "naval flavour" civ, and changing the SotL would really dilute that, which I think would be a shame.

EDIT: Oh yeah, unlike the plane UUs, you can also upgrade to it as well as from it, which really increases longevity.

 

[Ahriman]

"Men of the pen" is ok, but its a bit obscure. Most people won't have any particular reason how its related to Ottomans.

* * *
I think England gets enough naval advantage without the SoL; their UA means that their navy will always be superior. And being able to get your navy where its needed, and to fire first, is a big advantage.

In the current build I find navies aren't that useful, because they don't do enough damage to cities and they get stomped by on-land bombardment units.

I wonder; is there scope for a new line of naval siege promotions?

 

[Txurce]

"Men of the pen" is ok, but its a bit obscure. Most people won't have any particular reason how its related to Ottomans.

Let's face it - most of the non-western titles are obscure. Siam and Songhai immediately come to mind! I just thought it fits perfectly, and has the bonus of sounding hood.