Left Wing Populism May Not Be The Answer

they haven't been able to connect to people of colour. Neither of them have much support from American minorities.

I'm not sure about this topic, I've heard a lot of stuff both ways, but like, if Hillary could get more support from minorities than Sanders, I'd wager it was not because of her more right-wing views on economic policies
 
I'm not sure about this topic, I've heard a lot of stuff both ways, but like, if Hillary could get more support from minorities than Sanders, I'd wager it was not because of her more right-wing views on economic policies

It wasn't, it was because of her history. Pro bono work for black youth right when she stepped out of college. She hired more black women to run her campaign than any candidate before her (even Obama). Years of outreach to black communities in the south. For whatever reason, Bernie wasn't doing it. He still gets a ton of flack from black Americans for his post-election cries for connecting to white voters better. Again, the million dollar question is; can a Dem do these things and not alienate white voters.
 
That's interesting. Because to me it looked like you were saying our worth comes from an alleged propensity that, to me, seems pretty grounded in contemporary white-collar professional-class culture, rather than being inherent to our status as people.

When I said:

That's where the worth of people comes from, partly, our ability to constantly better ourselves, learn new skills, get better at being a spouse, sibling, friend, and yes, worker.

All people do this to some degree, even if all they become better at is being a terrible person. There is usually a degree of wanting to be better at something involved, but it has nothing to do with collar color, or education level.
 
When I said:



All people do this to some degree, even if all they become better at is being a terrible person. There is usually a degree of wanting to be better at something involved, but it has nothing to do with collar color, or education level.

You know, I gotta say metalhead, I'm finding myself agreeing with you more and more lately.
 
Are immigrants and current minorities, who generally speaking, are very pro immigration and multiculturalism, now the wealthy elite?

Well now the immigrants who have made it to the West are disproportionately the wealthy elite from the third world.
The fact is that the really poor in the third world had no money to pay for air fare, student fees,visas or people smugglers.
 
Well now the immigrants who have made it to the West are disproportionately the wealthy elite from the third world.

Yeah, "disproportionately," but like, what, 5% instead of 1%? 10% instead of 5%?

The idea that immigrants are richer on average than natives in any Western country is just laughable.
 
The idea that immigrants are richer on average than natives in any Western country is just laughable

I don't think that's what he's saying. At least that's not what I took away from his post. I think he's saying it is those who are considered the wealthy elite in their nation that are able to afford the cost of moving to the West. Of course, the standard for "wealthy elite" in, say, Somalia, is a lot different than it is in the West.
 
Honestly, I don't know what its like outside of the US so its hard to comment there but in the US left-wing populism didn't get a real chance in 2016. Bernie's message didn't really make waves until a good way into the primaries. The corporate news media tried very hard to make him out to be a crazy, wild-haired third-party candidate attempting to hijack the election from the beloved HRC. Any article claiming its not the answer is probably written in an attempt to turn Bernie-Bros back into establishment Democrat drones. Did I come across as crazy in that rant?

Anyway, if they get a real strong populist progressive to challenge Trump in 2020 he/she'll win by a landslide. Especially if he/she can do two things:

(1) Get it through voter's thick skulls that he/she will protect all of the Bill of Rights amendments and not cherry pick certain ones like the established members of both parties do. If a populist Democrat comes right out and says they're not going to take guns from law abiding citizens they'll quickly siphon votes from the GoP.

(2) Stop just saying "free college" and "student loan forgiveness." Those mean almost nothing to disenfranchised rust belt voters. Add in "free trade school" and "skilled trade training programs" and he/she will start talking Rust Belt lingo. Those jobs are still in demand and WWC voters who turn their noses up at white collar educated jobs will go nuts for an opportunity to join a skilled trade.
 
Based on their data, the problem was this; the Republican party has a lockdown on the white and Christian cultural grievance sentiment that is driving a lot of white American voters. If you are a white American, and you truly believe that, deep down, your way of life, your culture is under attack, that gets priority over food stamp programs and minimum wage increases.

So, basically what I said before:
My point is that people who think "I disagree with every part of Trump's odious platform but I'm going to vote for him anyway" either don't really exist or they're so out of touch with reality that you're not going to be able to reason with them effectively.


Where are the moderates who want to start a conversation with Trump supporters?
 
Where are the moderates who want to start a conversation with Trump supporters?

I voted for Bush 1st term, McCain in '08 and Romney in '12. Where are the moderates? We're turned off by the extremism coming from Trump and his cadre. If anything his rhetoric is only polarizing former moderates.
 
The more I think about the article in the OP the more weird it seems that anyone calling themselves a liberal would believe it. The idea that racial/cultural diversity and socioeconomic justice/equality are fundamentally at odds with one another is an arch-conservative position and has been for at least a century. It found its highest expression in concepts like the Volksgemeinschaft. That "liberals" are now arguing it is depressing.

Yes, but that is not what I said.

No, but it's what you implied given the context of your statement.
 
The more I think about the article in the OP the more weird it seems that anyone calling themselves a liberal would believe it. The idea that racial/cultural diversity and socioeconomic justice/equality are fundamentally at odds with one another is an arch-conservative position and has been for at least a century. It found its highest expression in concepts like the Volksgemeinschaft. That "liberals" are now arguing it is depressing.

Very. And not just "liberals," but what is supposed to be the extreme left in our country. Apparently you have to pick one or the other. I've actually had discussions where an ardent Bernie fan explained to me that you don't really need to worry about racial equality, because if you pass all of the economic reforms, it will basically just take care of itself. The fallback position from that is, "Well you have to do all the economic stuff first otherwise you won't achieve any social justice anyways."
 
That makes sense to me. If you keep black people in poverty, you keep them in crime, which entrenches racism (black people are criminals!). That's simple cause and effect.

If you raise them out of poverty, the message will stick around because of racism, but it will stop self-propagating just like we stopped being racist to the Irish.

edit: of course you still need to worry about racial equality. But this might be the best way to get there? Second best, next to ending the !@#$ing drug war
 
Last edited:
Very. And not just "liberals," but what is supposed to be the extreme left in our country. Apparently you have to pick one or the other. I've actually had discussions where an ardent Bernie fan explained to me that you don't really need to worry about racial equality, because if you pass all of the economic reforms, it will basically just take care of itself. The fallback position from that is, "Well you have to do all the economic stuff first otherwise you won't achieve any social justice anyways."

I think both positions are wrong, but this at least makes some sense in that reduced economic inequality would presumably lower the stakes of racial inequality somewhat. The converse argument, that it's ok to have a stratified society as long as we can have a diverse ruling class, also makes sense to me but I think it's a political loser (seems that most people, if presented with a choice between diversity and justice, are going to pick the latter).

This Jacobin article is a good one on the subject:
https://www.jacobinmag.com/2016/07/left-class-racism-identity-struggle-oppression/

That’s why class struggle is so central, because marginalization doesn’t occur in the abstract. It happens when I can’t get a job, when I get denied for loans, when property managers with available units lie and tell me there are none for rent.

Imo this is an issue with identity-reductionist politics on the left - not 'identity politics' as a whole, but the particular brand of identity politics that positions race, or gender, or what have you, as fundamental divisions that can't be bridged by any kind of political organizing.

Incidentally, it was another Jacobin article, specifically about the Vox piece, that gave me some of these ideas.

https://www.jacobinmag.com/2017/03/...acy-donald-trump-bernie-sanders-bill-clinton/

Why liberals might be interested in this story after Trump is pretty obvious. The narrative that has emerged from Trump’s win is that nobody could have beaten the stupendous Whitelash that elected him. Clinton couldn’t do it. Bernie couldn’t do it. Nobody could do it. This exempts Democrats from any criticism of the party’s support of Clinton over Sanders.

The problem with blaming Trump’s win on angry whites is that white people did not support Trump in any larger numbers than they usually support Republicans.

I would change that second-to-last sentence so that instead of focusing on Sanders it just says "this argument exempts the Democrats from any criticism of the party's handling of the election."
 
That makes sense to me. If you keep black people in poverty, you keep them in crime, which entrenches racism (black people are criminals!). That's simple cause and effect.

If you raise them out of poverty, the message will stick around because of racism, but it will stop self-propagating just like we stopped being racist to the Irish.
No, you have it backwards... And this is exactly the mistaken perspective that perpetuates the "black people are criminals" mentality and the "all this rampant black crime explains/justifies racial prejudice" mentality. Black people are not "in crime" and "black crime" does not "cause" or "entrench" racism. Racism causes the negative, prejudicial attitudes that lead to disproportionate negative treatment by the justice system, which in turn leads to the skewed crime statistics, which are then used as justification for more disproportionately negative treatment. The myth is that higher arrest rates and conviction rates = higher amounts of actual commission of crime... it doesn't. Higher arrest and conviction rates means higher arrest and conviction rates, period. Simply put, the flawed thought process goes "We have to focus all of our law enforcement efforts on blacks, because look at all the blacks we are arresting and convicting!" But if you focus on hunting deer rather than fish, you catch way more deer than fish... that doesn't mean that the deer are "worse" at survival. It just means you are getting the expected result of the focus of your efforts.

Just one example... during the 2008 election you had around a quarter of Kentucky and West Virginia Democrats essentially saying that they wouldn't vote for a black guy because he was black.
In fact, both West Virginia and Kentucky have gone against the national tide of the last 8 years and have been trending Republican. Also – and this needs to be said – a significant percentage of the voters in both those states have now indicated that they may not vote for a fellow Democrat simply because he’s black. Pollsters know that people lie about race; voters rarely come out and say they will not vote for someone because he’s black. Instead, they say things like we’re hearing from West Virginia and Kentucky – that “race is a factor.” In Kentucky, over 25 percent of Clinton supporters said race was a factor in their vote – about five times the national average for such a question.
And this isn't some crack dealer or carjacker were talking about ...we're talking about a sitting US Senator, attorney, Harvard law professor, on-and-on... So the whole "blacks are criminals" canard is no excuse for their refusal to vote for him... it was just flat out racism with no "justification" whatsoever. Again "black crime" doesn't "cause racism". The institutional and cultural perpetuation of the racist and prejudicial treatment and portrayal of blacks is what causes racism. In other words, people are prejudiced against blacks because they are taught to be prejudiced against blacks from childhood, not because of "black crime."

And this same racism leads to this negative perception bleeding over into other areas... news media, business, pop culture, etc... Again, racism causes the negative, prejudicial, media portrayal, stereotypical portrayal in pop-culture, etc., which in turn leads to prejudicial hiring practices, which leads to poverty, low income neighborhoods and the poor education that goes along with that, which in turn creates a vicious cycle with the stereotypes. So in summation... you don't need to "raise blacks out of poverty" or stop so-called "black crime" to end racism.. You need to end racism to end racism.

And to bring this full circle with the topic of the thread... If Democrats/liberals think that they will motivate black voters with a purely economics message like "lift blacks out of the inner cities and poverty and that will end racism"... they are going to be sorely disappointed. Racism/Prejudice is a thing, separate from economics... Democrats ignore that at their political peril.
 
Last edited:
And to bring this full circle with the topic of the thread... If Democrats/liberals think that they will motivate black voters with a purely economics message like "lift blacks out of the inner cities and poverty and that will end racism"... they are going to be sorely disappointed. Racism/Prejudice is a thing, separate from economics... Democrats ignore that at their political peril.

This is the key right here. The Jayhawkian response is "Well everyone is racist and you'll never end racism so it's stupid to try." The premise may very well be true - I don't think you can "end racism" through public policy. What you can do is mitigate or possibly even eliminate the impact of discrimination on people's lives, which is a completely different thing, and eminently achievable if there is the will to achieve it. Which is why I'm so disappointed that the Bernie wing seems to believe that you don't need to worry about that, that it's a secondary concern, or worse that solving economic inequality magically makes it go away.

If we had seen Bernie come out early and often and speak as coherently on issues of discrimination as he does on issues of economic inequality, he may have been able to win the primary. I mean, neither candidate went much further than the ultra-low hanging fruit of various general police reforms, which are important but far from the only issue that one needs literacy in to actually appear able to address the needs of communities that face discrimination from everywhere, not just the justice system.
 
I don't think that's what he's saying. At least that's not what I took away from his post. I think he's saying it is those who are considered the wealthy elite in their nation that are able to afford the cost of moving to the West. Of course, the standard for "wealthy elite" in, say, Somalia, is a lot different than it is in the West.

Precisely.
 
Back
Top Bottom