Leftists

[Cheezy the Wiz]

I'd say that "Christian" and "capitalist" aren't really compatible - but then what do I know, I've been corrupted by reading too many godless pinko lefties like St Basil of Caesarea.

You are precisely correct. You might say that my faith drove me left harder than social-economic education did.

 

[ParadigmShifter]

Well I'm pretty sure there is some lunatic fringe which is trying to produce a version of the Bible which is pro-capitalism.

Apart from that one fable about the guy who didn't invest his money and buried it in a hole which is all they ever seem to come up with.

 

[Cheezy the Wiz]

Well I'm pretty sure there is some lunatic fringe which is trying to produce a version of the Bible which is pro-capitalism.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_right

 

[sophie]

Well I'm pretty sure there is some lunatic fringe which is trying to produce a version of the Bible which is pro-capitalism.

http://www.conservapedia.com/Bible_Retranslation_Project

 

[civ_king]

I'd say that "Christian" and "capitalist" aren't really compatible - but then what do I know, I've been corrupted by reading too many godless pinko lefties like St Basil of Caesarea.

Correct, they are incompatible (at least pure Capitalism)

I don't think there's any good reason to think Jesus was a socialist or held any other political position; he thought the world was going to end soon and wasn't really interested in earthly political systems. The quote about rendering to Caesar (which is probably authentic) illustrates this nicely: Jesus is asked a question about politics, but he gives an answer about God. Also, I'm afraid that he would probably have had short hair. The common portrayal of Jesus with long hair only became common in the fourth century.

However, Jesus' teaching and the beliefs of the early Christians were very influential on the development of socialism in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries. The "social Gospel" movement was an important movement within the Protestant churches, especially in Britain and Canada and parts of the United States, and it basically called for socialist policies on the basis of Christian principles. Here's a brief passage I wrote a while back on this, for anyone who's interested:



The point being, don't assume that Christianity goes hand-in-hand with right-wing politics. The association of Christianity and right-wing politics in the United States at the moment distorts many people's perceptions of this subject, but it doesn't reflect the wider reality. Indeed the association of Christianity with right-wing politics even in the United States is quite a recent development, going back only about thirty years, and even then it is by no means absolute. It's just that the right-wing Christians make more noise than the others. There are many interesting reasons for all this - which are perhaps related to the reasons why the US in general is more right-wing than most of the rest of the world - but of course this thread is not the place to discuss them.

Jesus would likely be classified as either a socialist or communist in the US today

Interesting.

If Jesus didn't have long hair how come kids keep yelling "Jesus" at me huh?

EDIT: Would you say Islam is more socialist than Christianity? With the mandatory charitable giving as one of its seven pillars?

five pillars, you can use the

[s][/s]

to cross it out an substitute the answer

And sometimes you can have political issue intermixing with religious.

In the town where I live now, Mazamet, there is a strong protestant community, and it was an important industrial town (leather industry).

At the beginning of the previous century, the factory owners were mostly protestant, while the workers were mostly catholics.

At the time, the right wing political party and the catholics were "allied"...

And so in Mazamet, the workers were voting for the right wing, while the bosses were voting for the left wing

Not entirely surprising as the French king was known as "His Most Christian Majesty"

Well I'm pretty sure there is some lunatic fringe which is trying to produce a version of the Bible which is pro-capitalism.

Apart from that one fable about the guy who didn't invest his money and buried it in a hole which is all they ever seem to come up with.

Too late, they already tried to co-opt Jesus

 

[Arakhor]

I just looked at that link that Owen posted - if it wasn't so utterly serious, it would be hilarious. Their page on "liberals" is practically a parody of every hard-line belief going.

 

[choxorn]

I just looked at that link that Owen posted - if it wasn't so utterly serious, it would be hilarious. Their page on "liberals" is practically a parody of every hard-line belief going.

The first few times I saw that site, I thought it was just a parody of Conservative Beliefs. When I later learned they were actually being serious, my reaction was basically "Wait, What the Eff?"

 

[kulade]

I can't even muster the will to open a Conservapedia link anymore. It's just so sad to see a any kind of article so drenched in belligerent denial and self-righteousness. I nearly gag when ever I see a link; I can't understand why some people think it's funny.

 

[Ajidica]

The truely scary thing is they actualy have somedecent pages on that site. I was expecting their page on Islam to be full of bigoted hate but it was actualy pretty accurate (based on my limited knowledge about Islam), and best of all, made a distinction between Fundamentalist Islam and typical Islam.
Unfortunatly, some pages like the Liberal one, throw all potential credibility of Conservapedia out the window. Plus I do love their Obama page "allegedly born in Hawaii".

kulade: Conservapedia is often funny in the sad way, such as Glenn Beck going absolutely off-the-walls postal at this one lady who asked him what he would do the fix health care. Its funny to watch, but also sort of sad that people believe such an unstable idiot is talking truth.

 

[Arakhor]

Their page on alleged liberals is composed of so many generalisations, laughable inaccuracies and downright lies that suddenly I am not surprised how it breeds such right-wing extremists that they make Nick Griffin of the BNP (the British fascist party) look like a socialist!

 

[choxorn]

I guess they think it's so bad it's funny. Sometimes it is, but usually it goes beyond funny to become "So bad it makes your head explode"

 

[Traitorfish]

I don't think there's any good reason to think Jesus was a socialist or held any other political position; he thought the world was going to end soon and wasn't really interested in earthly political systems. The quote about rendering to Caesar (which is probably authentic) illustrates this nicely: Jesus is asked a question about politics, but he gives an answer about God. Also, I'm afraid that he would probably have had short hair. The common portrayal of Jesus with long hair only became common in the fourth century.

As I understand it, it was something to do with long hair being fashionable among the contemporary aristocracy, who depicted Jesus as looking like themselves to distance himselves from the short-haired peasantry, and it just sort of stuck? If that's true, then it's a wonderful irony that the look has cycled back through to "countercultural weirdo".

Also, on the Christian Socialism thing, a more recent example- just to demonstrate this wasn't a particularly Victorian phenomenon- is Tony Benn, one of the most outspoken British socialists of the post-war era, who was a devout Presbyterian. American posters may remember him as the old British chap in Michael Moore's Sicko. Appropriately enough, in the extended DVD interview, he makes a few religious references, albeit not particularly significant ones by American standards.

If Jesus didn't have long hair how come kids keep yelling "Jesus" at me huh?

That's quite creative. All I ever get is "hippy".
Better than I had dreadlocks, mind: wear them for a week and you will find that at least five hundred different people think that calling you "Bob Marley" is both witty and original.

Their page on alleged liberals is composed of so many generalisations, laughable inaccuracies and downright lies that suddenly I am not surprised how it breeds such right-wing extremists that they make Nick Griffin of the BNP (the British fascist party) look like a socialist!

Case in point, I have heard Americans, including posters on this forum, have referred to the BNP as a socialist party, because they support social welfare.

 

[Arakhor]

It has to be said though that even Nick Griffin, the known political headcase, neo-fascist and white supremacist, supports the NHS, so I assume that automatically makes him a socialist too.

 

[Quackers]

The BNP has many socialist economic policies. Probably dervied from Strasserism.

 

[Arakhor]

They are nominally British after all. Anyone proposing to scrap the NHS would never get elected. Even George Galloway (the odious little prig) would have a better chance than that hypothetical party!

 

[Traitorfish]

The BNP has many socialist economic policies. Probably dervied from Strasserism.

Well, "collectivist", rather than "socialist"; it's certainly true to say that left-fascism has been historically influenced by socialism, but it's important to keep the two distinct. Left-fascism typically identifies as a Third Way philosophy, specifically identifying with the so-called "Third Position", favouring economic systems such as corporatism and distributism over socialism.
That said, there are forms of ultranationalist and "right-wing" socialism, such as Russian National Bolshevism, but they are also distinct from fascism, tending towards Stalinism rather than Strasserism.

They are nominally British after all. Anyone proposing to scrap the NHS would never get elected. Even George Galloway (the odious little prig) would have a better chance than that hypothetical party!

To be fair to Quackers (and the BNP, much as it pains me to say), I think they are sincere in their support of social services, at least for those they deem to be of sufficient racial purity. As with most extreme-right movements in post-war Europe, they have identified with left-fascism rather than right-fascism, the latter tending to spawn in the middle classes and seek the support of the establishment, while most modern extreme-right tends to be a working class, anti-establishment movement. The whole racial victim complex they have tends to support a pretty strong anti-capitalist streak, and, while they are at least as vehemently opposed to socialism as they are to capitalism, there are no inherent contradictions between collectivist institutions like the NHS and their ethnic nationalism.

 

[NBAfan]

I don't think there's any good reason to think Jesus was a socialist or held any other political position; he thought the world was going to end soon and wasn't really interested in earthly political systems. The quote about rendering to Caesar (which is probably authentic) illustrates this nicely: Jesus is asked a question about politics, but he gives an answer about God.

You are right, Jesus was not making any political statements. He did not think the world was going to end soon, He knows when it will end.

 

[JollyRoger]

You are right, Jesus was not making any political statements. He did not think the world was going to end soon, He knows when it will end.

He seemed to express that it was going to happen very close to his lifetime:

Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom.

[25] Behold, I have told you before.
[26] Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.
[27] For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
[28] For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
[29] Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
[30] And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
[32] Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
[33] So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
[34] Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

 

[Traitorfish]

You are right, Jesus was not making any political statements. He did not think the world was going to end soon, He knows when it will end.

That doesn't really work, though; in Plotinus' model, Jesus the Apocalypticist, then he was essentially preaching an apolitical, anti-materialistic philosophy, but in your model, Jesus the Messiah, then his teachings had necessary political ramifications. Even if he wasn't direct about them, they can still be inferred, as in any ethical system.

Out of interest, Plotinus, how common is the Apocalypse-prophet interpretation of the historical Jesus in academic circles? I'm aware that it's quite prominent, but the popular reluctance to recast Jesus as any greater a departure from his "classic form" than a sort of spiritual philosopher means that it's hard to get any real image of an academic consensus without diving into material that is way over my head.

 

[Ajidica]

GrogSwiller, that is from Revelations right?

Traitorfish: I have heard the apocalyptic model before. I don't know how good its scholarship is, but in the Q&A book "Do Elephants Jump?" it says the reason Christ and his disiples didn't really put forth any hierarchial structure was because they believed Christ would come soon. I'll have to see if I still have that book.