Lessons on Epics: Washington

[VoiceOfUnreason]

In a blatant, unrepentant rip off of Sisutil's All Leaders Challenge, I'm hoping to leverage the group mind to learn something about Epic play.

Motivation: I'm tired of getting my socks cleaned in the Realms Beyond Epics.

So the intention is to leverage the group mind to straighten out my more blatant errors (Kormus Bell!? You're playing a Kormus Bell?! How out of touch are you, Gordon? [1]), in the hopes that this game speed will start to make sense.

Maps and leaders pretty much chosen on a whim, partially biased against those Sisutil is using (since there's no need to duplicate the discussions of tactics for various leaders) and against my own inclinations (the idea being to break out of the bad habits).


[1] Expect STR bonus points sprinkled liberally throughout.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Opening kickoff: Washington

No, I'm not really good enough for Monarch on my own. I figure the combination of the group mind plus Financial should cover that. Climate and Sea Level come courtesy of the Random selection. Default checkboxes (I may choose otherwise in subsequent attempts). All victory conditions enabled - later on, I might try to be picky, but for the moment I'll take what the map gives me.

So Financial + Organized: Cheap courthouses (Code of Laws) and Lighthouses (Sailing). Agriculture (rice immediately available) and Fishing (nada, unless I want to use the lake tile to race somewhere).

The water directly south of the settler is Ocean, so there's potential for nice trade routes (and extra health from the harbor).

My instinct is to settle in place, after moving the Warrior to the Stone, revealing whatever that desert tile is. Wheel -> Pottery -> Writing to get a library going, and a worker off the start to farm the Rice first, then start building some cottages.

Save

 

[cabert]

a few questions :
is "lake" a wrapping map?

do you aim for stonehenge? stones nearby could help, but you would need 2 techs (mysticism and masonnery) + worker turns.
Still doable, but looks like a long shot.

First question is just to avoid silly options later, the second is for settling in place or not.

If it's no stonehenge, settle in place (other option is go NE, to build on a hill, but no food is a no no)

 

[Paul666]

I think you have been dealt a very difficult start. Only one resource in the fat cross you can use quickly, the silk (I think thats silk) has to wait for plantations. Hopefully the high sea levels means there is not as much land and the AI's have problems too.

Right off the bat I am thinking that you are going to need to go to war sooner rather than later. I think I would settle first, and see if that reveals a goodie hut to go after. If not, move NE and start looking for a victim.

I would make Bronze working the priority.

 

[Killroyan]

I would move SE (on the silk directly). It will put you near the stone, rice and another silk tile. At least 1 lake present and maybe connection to the sea. Enough hills present for production and some cottages on the grasslands to get the finances going. Fresh water source present and maybe a shot at pyramids. Lots of possibilities. With the financial trait it could be nice to go for mining/bronze working/metal casting to get the colussus and maybe light house up (don't know if it will work if this is just a lake you are near too).

 

[uncarved block]

VoR, I'm not sure the "group mind" is going to help with the biggest problem you're going to face: Barbs. The Lakes map (which does wrap, cabert) may only be 52x32 (in contrast to 84x52 for Continents), but almost every square will be Barb-spawning land, and not the pacific water (heh) you might be used to. My first tip would be to find how close you are to the tundra, because you're going to get a lot of "guests" coming from that way. The other civs will find you sooner or later- the old Civ2 arctic world tour has returned for this map- so reducing the presence of the hostiles should be a high priority, especially as I've heard they pick up a notch on Monarch.

If you've never played Lakes before, here's a couple tips going in: (Don't read this if you want to discover all this on you own. (I'd do the spoiler thng if I could recall the code. Sorry.)

--water based resources will be rare, even with sea level set at high; if there's a whale on the map, I'll be surprised. Health isn't as big an issue as happiness, but bonus resources are always worth noting.
--you won't have as much land as you think you do when you're exploring. Everybody gets two prime cities after the capitol, and then it's into the hinterlands. This is the other reason to keep an eye to the tundra, as all the other directions Barbs can spawn will be taken sooner rather than later.
--Diplomacy can be a little trickier, as everyone on the board can reach you given enough hatred. I've had civs other than Isabella and Monty march halfway across the planet to get to me, so find out who's your "worst enemy" early and often.

Best of luck, and hope this helps if you did read it.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

While I'm still in the planning stages, what would folks recommend for reporting intervals on Epic speed?

 

[Lance of Llanwy]

I'd march a tile SE and settle there, if the warrior exposes crap land near the stone. From my experience, the game LOVES putting stone in desert/plains with no possible way of getting food in the fat cross. The one-turn delay won't hurt much, as you should be focused on getting your military in order. There will be ALOT of barbs, so you need to get bronze and archery ASAP....why archers? They're cheaper and sit at home so your axes can roam, and they make great hilltop fogbusters, but you probably know that already. Horses would be nice, so AH is prolly where to go after Mining and BW. The lake will help in this regard. You have it, you can work it, you're financial, use it!!!

 

[Dr Elmer Jiggle]

While I'm still in the planning stages, what would folks recommend for reporting intervals on Epic speed?

I think Sisiutil has been using semi-random intervals based not on how many turns he plays but rather on when something interesting happens. That seems to work well and makes more intuitive sense. Play until you reach what seems like a critical decision point regardless of whether it was 2, 15, or 38 turns.

 

[Sisiutil]

Cool! This will be fun--letting someone else take the driver's seat so I can be the one to sit back and say, "I told you so!"

Let me add my voice to those urging you to settle 1 SE on the silk tile. Silk is a nice happiness booster come Calendar, but as a working tile, it's not that great. Having a city on the silk will give you the resource and its little boost as soon as you get Calendar. Unless you really need it for trading, I'd be tempted to farm or cottage the other silk tile. I'm torn between moving the Warrior onto the grassland hill to see more of what you'll be gaining, or onto the stone to see what you'd be giving up. Probably I'd do the latter.

That is a really nice position for stone. Like Lance said, usually it's somewhere with no food available. I wouldn't be surprised that if you pass on it for the capital, it will be difficult to position another viable city to access it. IIRC, with a quarry, that tile will yield 1 food and 4 hammers--kind of like a grassland and plains hill combined, and you'll have one each of those within the fat cross, too. That will give your capital some good production. I don't think you'll have it on-line in time to help with Stonehenge, but I'm usually able to finish the 'henge without stone.

Then again, this IS Monarch. If you really want Stonehenge (which I'd recommend), I'd say you have some time, take the risk and give yourself an edge. Research Mysticism, Masonry, and the Wheel, then go for BW and Hunting/Archery for protection.

Normally I'd say you could consider the Pyramids too, but given the level and the warnings about the map and barbs, you may have your hands full. I'd rather build up defenses and go after the Oracle for a CoL slingshot, more GP points, and early access to those cheap courthouses.

Now, a request: could you explain some of those terms you used (Realms Beyond Epics, Kormus Bell) to us ignorant unwashed?

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

Now, a request: could you explain some of those terms you used (Realms Beyond Epics, Kormus Bell) to us ignorant unwashed?

Realms Beyond. Think "Game of the Month", but with variant rules (think cuban isolationists) and scoring. Each game closes with a bunch of folks writing reports. If you really want to compare yourself to Sullla, Sirian, Kylearan, that's the place to go. You've still got time to join in for Adventure 8, and probably time to finish Epic 4.

Kormus Bell

but that's not a spoiler; STR points still available

 

[theimmortal1]

Make sure you steal a couple workers on Monarch

 

[Sisiutil]

Realms Beyond. Think "Game of the Month", but with variant rules (think cuban isolationists) and scoring. Each game closes with a bunch of folks writing reports. If you really want to compare yourself to Sullla, Sirian, Kylearan, that's the place to go. You've still got time to join in for Adventure 8, and probably time to finish Epic 4.

Kormus Bell

but that's not a spoiler; STR points still available

I'm going to have to check out the RB site, and I might give it a go, though I'm not much into comparing myself to anyone.

Yeah, I'd say I would definitely have time to finish Epic 4--or, more accurately, have it finish me! Raging barbs on deity? Yikes.

I'm still no further enightened as to the Kormus Bell. D&D? And what are STR points?

 

[pigswill]

I'd say stay where you are; you're a way from calendar so in the short term you've got silk forests for production and commerce, useful for pop2 city, later on you can chop and cottage silk for additional commerce (eventual happy plantation) and you've got rice for food and hills for production. In terms of stone you'll get it in third ring eventually even if there ain't a city site.
I'd guess first builds will be warriors for exploration, poss worker theft.
In terms of reporting I guess its when you think we could have something to argue(oops I meant 'advise') about.

 

[Pantastic]

The really important thing when playing on lakes at slower speeds is to be ready for the barbarian hordes. You'll want a lot of fog-busting warriors or better fighters ready for when the barbs show up and start marching at you at around 2000bc. It's much worse on lakes than on other map types because you don't have a coastline to put your back to, there's a lot of blank area for them to spawn and head for you.

 

[Nares]

Hunting -> Mining -> Archery -> Bronze Working -> The Wheel

Worker -> Scout -> Archer (Warrior) -> Archer -> Settler

or

Hunting -> Archery -> Mining -> Bronze Working -> The Wheel

Warrior -> Warrior -> Archer (Warrior) -> Archer -> Settler

Warriors make better scouting units than Scouts. Between Forest/Jungle/Hill tiles, and Barbarian animals (namely Bears), the Warrior is already as good if not better (longer lifespan, roughly same movement in most terrain). The real reason why you want Warriors, however, is that they can snag Workers.

Stealing workers is, of course, the best way to produce them. Once you've grabbed one or two, most (maybe all) AI leaders will start protecting them with Archer escorts. However, one or two is all you need at this point.

Alternatively, you could build the Worker first, but you do have those tasty Silk tiles (2, 1, 1 IIRC), which are awesome in these opening turns. You might as well be working the both of them (work Rice to size 2, then the two Silk tiles).

Kormus Bell!? You're playing a Kormus Bell?! How out of touch are you, Gordon?

AHAHAHAHAHAHA

I'm still no further enightened as to the Kormus Bell. D&D? And what are STR points?

Magic: The Gathering. STR points are, as in D&D, strength points. Creatures had STR/DEF (I believe this is how CIII worked; correct me if I'm wrong; I didn't play much CIII).

EDIT: I'll leave the above to refer to the quote below. But, for what it's worth, Kormus Bell wasn't the most useless of cards. Just not the best.

 

[VoiceOfUnreason]

STR points are, as in D&D, strength points.

Heh, ooops, no. STR = spot the reference... a ha ha, I'm writing something clever and challenging you to be the first clever enough to recognize the source. Kind of Childish, really [1].

Korbus Bell is indeed from Magic: The Marketing. But the reference is to another work.


I think I'd like to try the Worker theft notion, assuming the map supports it. So Hunting Archery makes sense to me (with the intention of having an archer in place when the AI arrives to steal the worker back).

BTW: anybody who had "it's an Oasis!" in the "what the @#$@#$ is a desert doing in the middle of the fat cross?" pool wins the penny.

[1] Oh my god, he's doing it again!

 

[Nares]

Heh, ooops, no. STR = spot the reference... a ha ha, I'm writing something clever and challenging you to be the first clever enough to recognize the source. Kind of Childish, really [1].

Korbus Bell is indeed from Magic: The Marketing. But the reference is to another work.

Heh, Sisiutil threw me off. Though I would never have figured STR to be "spot the referrence."

Could always just Wikipedia it. Actually, Wikipedia failed on this one. I've got a lead, but I'm curious as to how you embed a link into a word or phrase.

In the meantime, back to the game.

BTW: anybody who had "it's an Oasis!" in the "what the @#$@#$ is a desert doing in the middle of the fat cross?" pool wins the penny.

Makes sense. I'm not sure if the game actively edits the first twenty you spawn in at the start of a game, but the Oasis here makes sense.

I think I'd like to try the Worker theft notion, assuming the map supports it. So Hunting Archery makes sense to me (with the intention of having an archer in place when the AI arrives to steal the worker back).

I don't think I've ever seen the AI come to recollect its stolen worker. But, given the Rice and that you have Agriculture, you may be better off just building the Worker off the bat, researching Hunting->Archery, then building Archers instead of wasting on Scouts and/or Warriors. Still, snagging a second and/or third Worker couldn't hurt, assuming you can find the right opportunities.

 

[cabert]

i'm a total worker robber, but for this one, i'm with nares :
you already know a good tech for a soon coming out worker, and can work a 2 food + 1 p + 1C from the start, giving you a somewhat good start towards a worker without leaving out commerce

so i would go worker/warrior/warrior/settler
while researching mining/BW

I would send the first warrior in a general NE direction, and the second one in a general W/NW direction : looking for targets (worker to rob), the third one will be fog busting near a good city site once you have found one.
If barbs can out really soon, you may have to build more warriors, but i wouldn't bother with hunting unless you see ivory somewhere.

 

[Andraeianus I]

An alternative approach:

I think you have a good start. Build your city on the square it is standing. I oppose to researching technologies that improve production immediately. For three reasons:
1. Establishing an early religion is more imporant.
2. When the barbs come they will destroy you terrain improvements
3. You don't need a worker. Instead you can try to get an early second city on a strategic location.

So in general:
Research Mysticism->Polytheism->Masonry->Monotheism first. This way you have a good chance of founding Hinduism in you capital and Judaism in your second city.

Sailing can be a good early tech after that in order to expand your religion by trade and to connect your cities without the need of building roads. Just explore the coastline and the rivers. Use some warriors to prevent barbs building cities along your trade routes and breaking them.

Your capital's culture will get you stone eventually. Time to build the Pyramids! Do this preferrably in an inland city and use your capital to build The Great Lighthouse (sailing+masonry).

Three early cities will suffice: Your capital for building the coastal wonders, an inland city for the Pyramids and a third city for military units.