Lets get this out into the open: MRAs

[Quackers]

So what are men's rights activists and what do they want to achieve?

Here is the Wikipedia definition:
NOTE: There are big warning sign that this Wikipedia entry may be biased, so be warned.

The men's rights movement contests claims that men have greater power, privilege or advantage than women and focuses on what it considers to be issues of male disadvantage, discrimination and oppression.[1][2] The MRM is considered to be a backlash or countermovement to feminism, often as a result of a perceived threat to traditional gender roles.[3] The men's rights movement has been involved in a variety of areas related to law (including family law, parenting, reproduction and domestic violence), government services (including education, compulsory military service and social safety nets), and health that they believe discriminate against men.

I don't want to turn this into a bash-MRA thread or anything. Rather I want to focus on whether the issues these men raise are valid and should government interfere to correct these issues.
Often MRAs bring up several arguments which demonstrates the poor position men find themselves in. Briefly, these include:

-Father's rights. This is the main thing which crops up whenever I read MRA stuff online. Father's find two things which go against them. Firstly, they do not get as much custody as they would like; secondly, the financial obligations are far too expensive and unmanageable.
-Double standards in courts and prisons. Apparently women get away with lesser sentences for identical crimes in contrast to men. In addition, male rape in prison is swept under the rug and laughed at by society at large.
-Reproductive rights. While men do not have a say in whether the women carrying their child should get an abortion or not; they are obligated to 18 years of punitive child support. This issue is also tied up with paternity. If you believe you're the father of your child but than a DNA test proves otherwise, unless you completely renounce parentage of the child you remain on the child support register.
-Suicide. Men often kill themselves more often than women. If men are in a more priviledged position than women by default - why do they end it all at a far higher rate than women? Apparently this gender gap is a trend found throughout the world.
-Deaths and injuries at work. Roughly 9/10s of workplace deaths are male.


Now I don't advocate these arguments or disagree with them. I'm just bringing forward the bare bones of the movement.
Should the men's rights movement be taken seriously? Should feminists take up the mantle of men's rights and incorporate it? Are mens rights a bunch of fedora wearing losers like many try to portray them as? Is this just a reaction against feminism and female empowerment? Do any of the MR points convince you things should change? Can feminists and MRAs work together to achieve a more equitable society? Do they have to be at war? Thoughts CFC?

 

[Flying Pig]

I think that part of the problem is that there are areas in which men have a worse deal than women, but they are much fewer and further between than areas in which the reverse is true, and when they're brought up in the context of feminism it often seems (bear in mind that these are people whose ideology is built around being systematically belittled by men) that the person bringing them up is arguing that they are of equal importance to or more important than cases of 'real' sexism. Put another way, it's a bit like talking about child poverty at an RSPCA meeting; the implication will always be 'this is more important'. That said, given the serious PR problems that feminists still have, I do wonder whether it wouldn't be easier for them to take up those issues as well, which would involve minimally more work and neuter the accusation that they're 'female supremacists'.

 

[Manfred Belheim]

I thought this was already settled?

Views that MRAs tend to hold:
Belief in being entitled to women
belief that they are the "gentlemen" and thus women make bad decisions in going out with others and not them.
The belief that women are inferior.
The belief that women are sexual objects to do with as they please.
The belief that women have more rights or are treated more favourably in society, to the detriment of all men (but especially themselves).
The belief that women use sex as a weapon to harm men.

 

[Tahuti]

Neither feminism nor MRA should be taken seriously. Both deny the fundamental psychological and physical differences between genders. Actually, I would argue that feminism and MRA are sides of the same coin, with the common goal of effacing differences between men and women.

I think it is fairly normal that men die more often on the workplace and that women earn on average less. Both are related to the lifestyle choices men and women generally make and are in most cases best suited for.

 

[Gori the Grey]

Wikipedia has it almost right. I'll correct it:

The MRM is considered to be a backlash or countermovement to feminism

People who are suffering through my FRPG in the "california train bias" thread may be surprised to hear me say so in such categorical terms, but the Men's Right Movement is a backlash movement. It's very name is a belittling taunt.

The notion that we might need to make any efforts secure "men's rights" is nails on a chalkboard to so many on this site for precisely the reasons Flying Pig lays out. Men are still so advantaged (on average) relative to women by the (still hegemonic) patriarchy that the small number of arenas in which they might receive less good treatment fade to insignificance in comparison with what still needs to be achieved to insure full equality for women.

Suck it up. Be men, one might be tempted to say if it didn't risk enshrining the very sexism one seeks to subvert.

(For all that, I still contend that the phrase "men's rights activist" gets us into endless, needless trouble on this forum.)

 

[Formaldehyde]

Neither feminism nor MRA should be taken seriously. Both deny the fundamental psychological and physical differences between genders. Actually, I would argue that feminism and MRA are sides of the same coin, with the common goal of effacing differences between men and women.

I think it is fairly normal that men die more often on the workplace and that women earn on average less. Both are related to the lifestyle choices men and women generally make and are in most cases best suited for.

Ironically, claiming that feminism is any sort of real issue is yet another MRA fantasy.

Wikipedia has it almost right. I'll correct it:



People who are suffering through my FRPG in the "california train bias" thread may be surprised to hear me say so in such categorical terms, but the Men's Right Movement is a backlash movement. It's very name is a belittling taunt.

The notion that we might need to make any efforts secure "men's rights" is nails on a chalkboard to so many on this site for precisely the reasons Flying Pig lays out. Men are still so advantaged (on average) relative to women by the (still hegemonic) patriarchy that the small number of arenas in which they might receive less good treatment fade to insignificance in comparison with what still needs to be achieved to insure full equality for women.

Suck it up. Be men, one might be tempted to say.

(For all that, I still contend that the phrase "men's rights activist" gets us into endless, needless trouble on this forum.)

EDIT: You beat me to it!

 

[Senethro]

Srsly its like how the Nice Guys ruined the utility of a phrase that used to mean "this dudes alright, hes trustworthy and pleasant"

 

[Tahuti]

Ironically, claiming that feminism is any sort of real issue is yet another MRA fantasy.

So? I'd say feminism isn't really an issue in itself. Like MRA, it is part of a larger problem of naive egalitarian ideology of sameness and dogmatic colourblindness. The dogmatic desire to "balance" fundamental differences between humans.

 

[NovaKart]

The biggest mistake of MRA was to attack the feminist movement. They should have tried to work with the feminists because I think feminists would be more likely to address issues of gender inequality when it affects men than more traditional men and women. That is, unless they think the biggest problems facing men are the result of feminists and I think this is probably not true. If you look at western culture, what were things like for men before feminists? Men were forced to fight in wars, men were expected to pay for everything while in relationships with women and I don't believe there was any alimony for men in relationships with wealthier women to name just a few things.

One problem above that I think was not addressed was that in countries with conscription, it still only effects the men except for Israel I think. Even in Israel men still have a greater burden. In some countries, like Turkey, it has led to terrible human rights abuses and actually more men have died as the result of suicide and inadequate safety standards than have been killed by the PKK. This is largely ignored by the international media and it's a damn shame.

Some countries in Europe have gone a long way to fight sexism but still expect men to be in the armed services or in alternative service and the USA still forces men to register for selective service and this is blatant sexism that is ignored.

I think the issues of men in prison and men convicted of crimes is another thing that is probably a lot more serious than many people realize. The USA has more people in prison than any other nation in history according to many estimates and most of them are men.

I would like to see those concerned with issues that effect men, (not typical MRA people most likely) and those that effect women join together and abandon the divisive labels of feminists and MRA and fight gender discrimination where it exists while avoiding those who would pull us apart.

 

[Senethro]

So? I'd say feminism isn't really an issue in itself. Like MRA, it is part of a larger problem of naive egalitarian ideology of sameness and dogmatic colourblindness. The dogmatic desire to "balance" fundamental differences between humans.

balance this

http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fvv.pdf

 

[Borachio]

The biggest mistake of MRA was to attack the feminist movement. They should have tried to work with the feminists because I think feminists would be more likely to address issues of gender inequality when it affects men than more traditional men and women. That is, unless they think the biggest problems facing men are the result of feminists and I think this is probably not true. If you look at western culture, what were things like for men before feminists? Men were forced to fight in wars, men were expected to pay for everything while in relationships with women and I don't believe there was any alimony for men in relationships with wealthier women to name just a few things.

And there I think you've put your finger on the problem.

The impression I get from the MRA (and honestly I'm no expert on it, so my impression may be false; I haven't managed to study it more carefully because I find it rather tiresome quite quickly) is that they do blame feminists.

 

[Narz]

Father's rights is a serious issue but IMO, anything that makes people reluctant to reproduce is a good thing.

A child with the wrong woman can ruin your life so be careful.

 

[useless]

I have to ask the following:

Are men getting a "raw" deal because they are men specifically?
Are men going to prison because they are specifically male and somehow there's bigotry towards males?
Are men descriminated at work? We have quantifiable evidence that women are paid less for doing the same jobs as men.
Are males underepresented in politics? Again, females in the west alone are under represented, despite comprising almost 50 percent of the population.

In regards to male rape; i honestly believe if the Male right's movement dropped their pathetic passive-aggressive attacks on feminism and worked with feminists to dispel the notion and myth that men must be silent on emotional issues such as mental health and issues such as rape and sexual abuse, then this issue could be better addressed. But they don't.

And there I think you've put your finger on the problem.

The impression I get from the MRA (and honestly I'm no expert on it; I find it rather tiresome quite quickly) is that they do blame feminists.

This is no coincidence; the MRA movement is (as others have pointed out) a reaction and backlash to feminism and increased equality and rights for women.

 

[NovaKart]

And there I think you've put your finger on the problem.

The impression I get from the MRA (and honestly I'm no expert on it; I find it rather tiresome quite quickly) is that they do blame feminists.

Yeah they do. By doing this, they've made it difficult for men to express their opinions and bring up issues that effect men negatively without being dismissed or to have any say in gender issues.

 

[Narz]

Are men going to prison because they are specifically male and somehow there's bigotry towards males?

Well definitely women can & do get away with more in certain ways. If I were going to rob a bank I'd rather walk up to the teller accompanied by a couple of pretty white women than some swarthy, thuggish looking males. And I'd imagine women (specifically non-descript, quick-witted white women) would be a better pick for smuggling drugs, I'd certainly choose a pretty (but not too eye-catching) girl to smuggle drugs over a black guy & definitely over an Arab guy.

Certain types (sex, class, etc.) can get away with certain things better than others, no doubt.

 

[squadbroken]

most of those MRA bullet points are a result of the same traditional gender roles/values that they are trying to protect from the evil feminists

The biggest mistake of MRA was to attack the feminist movement. They should have tried to work with the feminists because I think feminists would be more likely to address issues of gender inequality when it affects men than more traditional men and women.

the reasonable ones did decades ago, the modern MRM is just the bitter dregs

 

[useless]

Yeah they do. By doing this, they've made it difficult for men to express their opinions and bring up issues that effect men negatively without being dismissed or to have any say in gender issues.

You'll notice if a man ever does agree with a feminist on the issues of rape, masculinity, rape culture, the notion of what it means to be a male in todays society (albeit western based) they'll be labled a beta or other more demeaning labels.

I just wish the two would coincide, maybe one day the MRA movement will be legitimate, but at the moment it's just a backlash.

 

[Borachio]

Sure, appearances can be deceptive.

Would you buy a used car from this man?

Spoiler :

 

[useless]

Well definitely women can & do get away with more in certain ways. If I were going to rob a bank I'd rather walk up to the teller accompanied by a couple of pretty white women than some swarthy, thuggish looking males. And I'd imagine women (specifically non-descript, quick-witted white women) would be a better pick for smuggling drugs, I'd certainly choose a pretty (but not too eye-catching) girl to smuggle drugs over a black guy & definitely over an Arab guy.

Certain types (sex, class, etc.) can get away with certain things better than others, no doubt.

Do you have any actual proof that this happens? It's all good and well to claim it happens anecdotally but that doesn't make it the case. I'd point to the fact there's all women prisons as an example of why that is wrong. All you're bringing into this the matter of race which is a seperate issue. I'm pretty sure a black female smoking weed is going to face a harsher punishment in comparison to say a white woman being caught with some.

 

[trader/warrior]

Neither feminism nor MRA should be taken seriously. Both deny the fundamental psychological and physical differences between genders. Actually, I would argue that feminism and MRA are sides of the same coin, with the common goal of effacing differences between men and women.

I think it is fairly normal that men die more often on the workplace and that women earn on average less. Both are related to the lifestyle choices men and women generally make and are in most cases best suited for.

Societal norms regarding gender haven't tended to be very consistent, though. It was vastly different just 30 years ago, hell, large parts of the world today has a vastly different gender-balance, let alone most of human history.

How do we know what's according to fundamental human nature? When feminists fought to change the culture regarding women having equal access to work, was that an unnatural effacing of differences between the genders?