Lets get this out into the open: MRAs

[Narz]

Do you have any actual proof that this happens?

You can't really prove anything about people who are not detected/apprehended.

It's all good and well to claim it happens anecdotally but that doesn't make it the case. I'd point to the fact there's all women prisons as an example of why that is wrong.

A lot more men in prison than women.

I'm not really arguing that women definitely can get away with more crimewise, just that they probably can. The other night I was hanging with a 19-year old who easily got into a bar without showing her ID via flirting. Women have certain powers & use them. Men have other powers & use them. Everyone does the best they can to utilize stereotypes & take advantage of prejudices.

All you're bringing into this the matter of race which is a seperate issue. I'm pretty sure a black female smoking weed is going to face a harsher punishment in comparison to say a white woman being caught with some.

And she's much more likely to get caught as she may be out on the street instead of in her home. This is more of a class issue than a race one.

 

[useless]

Neither feminism nor MRA should be taken seriously. Both deny the fundamental psychological and physical differences between genders. Actually, I would argue that feminism and MRA are sides of the same coin, with the common goal of effacing differences between men and women.

And what differences are those pray tell? Beyond one's ability to impregnate and another's ability to give birth?

We're no longer feral animals, this biotruths stuff is quite insulting.

 

[Tahuti]

The biggest mistake of MRA was to attack the feminist movement. They should have tried to work with the feminists because I think feminists would be more likely to address issues of gender inequality when it affects men than more traditional men and women. That is, unless they think the biggest problems facing men are the result of feminists and I think this is probably not true. If you look at western culture, what were things like for men before feminists? Men were forced to fight in wars, men were expected to pay for everything while in relationships with women and I don't believe there was any alimony for men in relationships with wealthier women to name just a few things.

Some MRA organisations and individuals actually do work with feminists, though the anti-feminist ones get more publicity, I guess.

One problem above that I think was not addressed was that in countries with conscription, it still only effects the men except for Israel I think. Even in Israel men still have a greater burden. In some countries, like Turkey, it has led to terrible human rights abuses and actually more men have died as the result of suicide and inadequate safety standards than have been killed by the PKK. This is largely ignored by the international media and it's a damn shame.

Israel does practice female conscription, though women have shorter service periods and do not act as reservists after their service, while men do. Gender differences can and do matter, as both enemy and hostile combatants may react differently to women in less than positive ways, no matter how much effort is taken to be treated the same. There have been succesful female warriors in history, though they are arguably the exceptions that prove the general rule. It isn't unreasonable to have vastly different expectation towards different sexes in military roles at all.

 

[useless]

You can't really prove anything about people who are not detected/apprehended.


A lot more men in prison than women.

I'm not really arguing that women definitely can get away with more crimewise, just that they probably can. The other night I was hanging with a 19-year old who easily got into a bar without showing her ID via flirting. Women have certain powers & use them. Men have other powers & use them. Everyone does the best they can to utilize stereotypes & take advantage of prejudices.


And she's much more likely to get caught as she may be out on the street instead of in her home. This is more of a class issue than a race one.

First: What a cop out, you made the claim i'd at least expect an ounce of evidence to back it up.

Second: What powers are these? I too have a friend who doesn't need to show their id when they go to the bar. They are male.

Third: Except thats not the case: Blacks are 3.73 times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana.

 

[NovaKart]

Some MRA organisations and individuals actually do work with feminists, though the anti-feminist ones get more publicity, I guess.



Israel does practice female conscription, though women have shorter service periods and do not act as reservists after their service, while men do. Gender differences can and do matter, as both enemy and hostile combatants may react differently to women in less than positive ways, no matter how much effort is taken to be treated the same. There have been succesful female warriors in history, though they are arguably the exceptions that prove the general rule. It isn't unreasonable to have vastly different expectation towards different sexes in military roles at all.

I wasn't trying to make this about Israel because Israel's position is more unique. I brought it up because at least Israel has some expectation of women in the military.

I do think its well worth bringing up how the abuse of men in military service is largely ignored by human rights groups and if we're going to have a discussion of equal rights then to bring up how men face the greater burden of military service which I think is more relevant to the European countries that still practice conscription than Israel. If people want to create an egalitarian society than make it more egalitarian in all ways.

 

[Formaldehyde]

So? I'd say feminism isn't really an issue in itself. Like MRA, it is part of a larger problem of naive egalitarian ideology of sameness and dogmatic colourblindness. The dogmatic desire to "balance" fundamental differences between humans.

Again, except for trying to lump two quite dissimilar groups together MRA advocates make essentially the same claims about feminism.

You are also stereotyping feminists. It is an extraordinarily diverse group with a multitude of POVs. Some of them are indeed as fanatical as many MRA advocates are. But they are more the exception than the rule. There is good reason for a group which continues to be discriminated against in so many ways protests this gross inequity.

The notion that men need their so-called rights protected is just as silly as the Christians who claim they are being discriminated against in the US where they are the overwhelming majority. Trying to even compare the MRA advocates to feminists shows a deep misunderstanding of the real issues which is unfortunately all too common with many conservatives.

 

[Narz]

First: What a cop out, you made the claim i'd at least expect an ounce of evidence to back it up.

Not everything true can be proven on an Internet forum.

Like many problems women face. Most sexual abuse is not reported for instance & thus cannot be "proven".

If you think everyone can get away with stuff equally you need to leave your house more & observe.

Third: Except thats not the case: Blacks are 3.73 times more likely than whites to be arrested for marijuana.

Yeah, because of economic/social factors mostly. Racial profiling is probably a part too but profiling is based on social/class related assumptions. I don't think many people under 80 years old truly believe blacks are more inherently "criminal minded" anymore.

 

[warpus]

What I found surprising a couple days ago was finding out that women are the perpetrators of domestic violence more often than men, in the U.S. at least.

I only ever see "Violence against women" ads on TV and in the media, so I assumed that men were the #1 perpetrators.

 

[Narz]

Women hit men all the time, usually it doesn't hurt though.

 

[useless]

Silly me, expecting you to back up your claims about women somehow dodging punishment.

Yeah, because of economic/social factors mostly. Racial profiling is probably a part too but profiling is based on social/class related assumptions. I don't think many people under 80 years old truly believe blacks are more inherently "criminal minded" anymore.

So wait, how it be mostly social and economic factors when there's far more poor white people than black, yet blacks are disproportionately represented in jail and punished than white people?

 

[Formaldehyde]

I don't think many people under 80 years old truly believe blacks are more inherently "criminal minded" anymore.

Then you haven't been paying attention to what is frequently even claimed in this forum.

What I found surprising a couple days ago was finding out that women are the perpetrators of domestic violence more often than men, in the U.S. at least.

I only ever see "Violence against women" ads on TV and in the media, so I assumed that men were the #1 perpetrators.

Source please?

85% of domestic violence victims are women.3

Almost one-third of female homicide victims that
are reported in police records are killed by an intimate
partner.14

In 70-80% of intimate partner homicides, no matter
which partner was killed, the man physically abused
the woman before the murder.12

Only approximately one-quarter
of all physical assaults, one-fifth of
all rapes, and one-half of all
stalkings perpetuated against
females by intimate partners are
reported to the police.1

 

[Light Cleric]

The notion that we might need to make any efforts secure "men's rights" is nails on a chalkboard to so many on this site for precisely the reasons Flying Pig lays out. Men are still so advantaged (on average) relative to women by the (still hegemonic) patriarchy that the small number of arenas in which they might receive less good treatment fade to insignificance in comparison with what still needs to be achieved to insure full equality for women.

Suck it up. Be men, one might be tempted to say if it didn't risk enshrining the very sexism one seeks to subvert.

Gori's whole post was good but this is the best part of it.

It's really a terrible attempt for these kids to try and shift the blame elsewhere rather than look inwardly and see if, I dunno, there's something wrong with them that makes all these women turned away from them. This is the kind of stuff that's understandable for guys to think at 15 years old, not 25 when you should have heard from/talked to/read enough stuff from girls to know better. "Liking jerks" probably only accounts for like .1% of what these people actually see. I can seriously think of only one instance where that happened to me and it was when the girl explicitly told me she "likes men who are jerks but not to her" in a conversation later on down the road. What they see as "jerks" are guys who will approach women and won't have their world blown up if they get turned down. Who has the better chance with a woman, you sitting across the bar from her or the guy who got up and talked to her already? Not that hard to understand. These guys also tend to insecure and controlling which (SPOILERS) women do not like.

 

[cardgame]

Silly me, expecting you to back up your claims about women somehow dodging punishment.



So wait, how it be mostly social and economic factors when there's far more poor white people than black, yet blacks are disproportionately represented in jail and punished than white people?

You didn't know women get away with crime?

Or are you being deliberately obtuse? Because, really, I thought this was pretty common sense and common knowledge.


Women receive lighter sentences and have a higher chance of avoiding incarceration if convicted (probation, suspended, community service)

I can supply a lot more similar links

@Formaledehyde

Not sure when domestic violence ever entered this picture, but I'll answer your 85% female victim claim with this: men aren't victims.

This is engrained by society forever whenever there are gendered issues. Man gets slapped by a woman? Obviously must have done something to deserve it. How can she slap? Men don't think of themselves as victims, in no small part because there is no sympathy for them in the first place. Gotta suck it up, buttercup, because there are no other options.

Furthermore I'm pretty damn sure that claim is outdated at best.

Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent. In non-reciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases.

You know, if you're actually interested in debating MRA issues, and not useless('s) strawmen, there's a list here.

 

[metatron]

Then you haven't been paying attention to what is frequently even claimed in this forum.

Source please?

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=13241165&postcount=28
Can't quote cause the resident "feminists" got the thread closed.
I'm sure the links are clearly visible.

Anyway, if you follow through with all the links it should become obvious to you a) why i can, must and will reject your "source" wholesale and b) and how you have in citing this subpar source commited grave negligence.

Anyway, i am speculating that warpus may be refering to UK statistics on intimate partner violence, none the less.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Anyway, if you follow through with all the links it should become obvious to you a) why i can, must and will reject your "source" wholesale and b) and how you have in citing this subpar source commited grave negligence.

So highly reputable sources supporting the facts presented are some sort of "subpar source commited grave negligence"?

SOURCES 7/07

1 Tjaden, Patricia & Thoennes, Nancy. National Institute of Justice and the Centers of Disease Control and Prevention, “Extent, Nature and Consequences of Intimate Partner Violence: Findings from the National Violence Against Women Survey,” (2000).

3 Bureau of Justice Statistics Crime Data Brief, Intimate Partner Violence, 1993-2001, February 2003

12 Campbell, et al. (2003). “Assessing Risk Factors for Intimate Partner Homicide.” Intimate Partner Homicide, NIJ Journal, 250, 14-19. Washington, D.C.: National Institute of Justice, U.S. Department of Justice.

14 Federal Bureau of Investigation, Uniform Crime Reports “Crime in the United States, 2000,” (2001).

But go right ahead and show that what you allege is actually true.

It is a very good thing that women aren't nearly as prone to violence as men typically are. Can you imagine hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Thelmas and Louises each year exacting their revenge on a society which chronically mistreats their gender so badly?

 

[cardgame]

In academia, sources older than 10 years typically aren't acceptable.

I will point out that my posted domestic violence study is newer, published in 2007.

I will also concede that my women's sentencing study is older than 10 years, being also from 2001, but I doubt that is under any serious contention so it should be adequate.

 

[metatron]

So highly reputable sources supporting the facts presented are some sort of "subpar source commited grave negligence"?

But go right ahead and show that what you allege is actually true.

I already did.
In fact, if you'd care to follow through on examining my post above and the contained links you'd even get information on why your source's data is bad.

Oh, and you should really cut out your attitude. You're living in a country that ranks #43 or something in gender equality and are behaving all superior towards me (#7) and KG (#1), while i outraise your bs private source with the NIH and CDC.
The least you have to do at that point is to actually appreciate the linked information.
You don't get to be all snooty about the interaction at that point.
Not until you make a constant effort to keep up with foreign language sources, private and public, in say the Netherlands or Germany.

SOURCES 7/07

I'm not going to lecture here on selective citing. The point is, why didn't you cite the (dated) primary source on the datum which you are contesting. Also: Note that the CDC doesn't back up warpus' claim. Before you think i claimed it did.


Edit: Don't misunderstand this as a primary-sources-only rant. I'm the most lazy person myself. So i get it.
The point is you don't get to be lazy like that and be all smug about "having sources" while your opposition is supposedly talking out of their asses at the same time.
It's one or the other.

 

[warpus]

Women hit men all the time, usually it doesn't hurt though.

The numbers are "skewed", because it's women beating kids, not men. At least that's what some study said.

So it's not women beating men, although that does happen too.

I feel sexist just even touching this subject. It's like a wave of sexism has just washed over me and I'm creeped out... I'm outta here..

 

[carmen510]

Source please?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1854883/

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2663360/

Almost 24% of all relationships had some violence, and half (49.7%) of those were reciprocally violent. In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70% of the cases.

To date, most studies on IPV have focused on the victimization of women and girls rather than their male counterparts. This is due to the fact that a greater proportion of women report experiencing IPV; women are victimized at about five times the rate of men (Rennison & Welchans, 2000).

In recent years, researchers have begun to extend this body of research to examine female perpetration of violence in intimate relationships. There is increasing evidence to suggest that women commit as much or more IPV as men (Archer, 2000; Melton & Belknap, 2003). Among adolescents, research consistently shows that females perpetrate more acts of violence in intimate relationships than males (Arriaga & Foshee, 2004; Foshee et al., 1996; Hickman, Jaycox, & Aronoff, 2004; Lichter & McCloskey, 2004; Munoz-Rivas, Grana, O'Leary, & Gonzalez, 2007; Schwartz, O'Leary, & Kendziora, 1997; Spencer & Bryant, 2000; Wolfe et al., 2001).

 

[El_Machinae]

You know, I wonder if the 'lower sentences' thing can be explained by simple factors commonly considered in justice theory. In general, you want to make sentences severe enough to deter recidivism. Most sentencing hearings are based around the theme that the convict is less likely to re-offend than normal. A person who uses their bail time wisely can really drop down the sentence they end up receiving.

Anyway, I wonder if that's a factor.