Yeah, that's exactly right. I'll tweak my post to indicate that. thx.
Let's Play: Deity BC Space: Strategies from a 10 year veteran
- Thread starter WastinTime
- Start date
Let me quickly ponder the IW city, Amsterdam.
I think I want to consider Kremlin here around T279.
Whoa! I just had another idea since I'm prepping all this military for whipping. Switch from Rep to PoliceState for 5 turns (during slavery)? I'd only lose about 40bpt without Rep. 200 beakers total. It doesn't look like I'm doing enough military in other cities to make this idea worthwhile. back to work...
Amsterdam, no execs (overflow into IW), 6 chops, 2 whips
work eng, 28h
258 xbow, max hammers
259-260 q
261-270 IW 49hpt = ~540
271 whip elephant1
272 IW = ~792
273 xbow1
274 IW = ~992
275 chop 6 IW
(grow back to 7 by now)
276 whip2 temple 14/240
277 wealth or Kremlin
chop 6
Yuck. My IW city is maybe size 4 and has very little food til sushi. All forests are gone.
No good. Let's try Boston.
Boston, grow to size 8, 32 base-h
(prep these as close to max as possible)
prep1 settler 74/300
prep2 musk 47
T-4 pScout
T-3 scout
T-2: whip musk 47/160
(grow to 6)
T-1: whip settler 74/300 (234 baseh OF)
T+0: chop 6 Kremlin
= 2382/2400
So close. Mining Inc won't be there in time, so I think I need to chop 7, and in that case, drop the scout.
Then the city needs to produce an exec in a few turns. It should be size again 4 soon.
but I get to do a Kremlin-sized whip. 1 pop = 202h! minimum.
hmm... can't even 2 whip a cannon. It will have to be a building for 225h.
Colesseum or temple(for +2h). Needs 14/240 prep
I suppose colesseum since it was doing one of the 9 before.
Note to self: it looks like Boston has two, 3rd ring forests. I'd have to pull a dirty trick to get the one by Gao
I'd love to use those and save 2 more potential lumbermills, but I was already cutting Kremlin too close. We'll see.
I think I want to consider Kremlin here around T279.
Whoa! I just had another idea since I'm prepping all this military for whipping. Switch from Rep to PoliceState for 5 turns (during slavery)? I'd only lose about 40bpt without Rep. 200 beakers total. It doesn't look like I'm doing enough military in other cities to make this idea worthwhile. back to work...Amsterdam, no execs (overflow into IW), 6 chops, 2 whips
work eng, 28h
258 xbow, max hammers
259-260 q
261-270 IW 49hpt = ~540
271 whip elephant1
272 IW = ~792
273 xbow1
274 IW = ~992
275 chop 6 IW
(grow back to 7 by now)
276 whip2 temple 14/240
277 wealth or Kremlin
chop 6
Yuck. My IW city is maybe size 4 and has very little food til sushi. All forests are gone.
No good. Let's try Boston.
Boston, grow to size 8, 32 base-h
(prep these as close to max as possible)
prep1 settler 74/300
prep2 musk 47
T-4 pScout
T-3 scout
T-2: whip musk 47/160
(grow to 6)
T-1: whip settler 74/300 (234 baseh OF)
T+0: chop 6 Kremlin
= 2382/2400
So close. Mining Inc won't be there in time, so I think I need to chop 7, and in that case, drop the scout.
Then the city needs to produce an exec in a few turns. It should be size again 4 soon.
but I get to do a Kremlin-sized whip. 1 pop = 202h! minimum. hmm... can't even 2 whip a cannon. It will have to be a building for 225h.Colesseum or temple(for +2h). Needs 14/240 prep
I suppose colesseum since it was doing one of the 9 before.
Note to self: it looks like Boston has two, 3rd ring forests. I'd have to pull a dirty trick to get the one by Gao
I'd love to use those and save 2 more potential lumbermills, but I was already cutting Kremlin too close. We'll see.
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Now Kremlin is so close I can taste it!
I'm wondering if I should get it 1-2 turns faster by delaying the completion of Biology? After 2-bulbs, Bio still needs 2600 beakers.
How many farms do I have...that I'm working? When do I need to start the NatPark?
Well, I'll probably wait for after Kremlin to whip and overflow in to NP, so Bio not needed there.
Farms: looking....
maybe 50. 50 fpt for 10 turns is probably not worth it. There will be no critically starving city. Although I have a couple that are trying to grow before a deadline.
I'll decide later. I'm going to do minimal quechua and just try to build wealth to make it thru this critical time. I do have about 8,000 gold to spend over the next 16 turns.
I'm wondering if I should get it 1-2 turns faster by delaying the completion of Biology? After 2-bulbs, Bio still needs 2600 beakers.
How many farms do I have...that I'm working? When do I need to start the NatPark?
Well, I'll probably wait for after Kremlin to whip and overflow in to NP, so Bio not needed there.
Farms: looking....
maybe 50. 50 fpt for 10 turns is probably not worth it. There will be no critically starving city. Although I have a couple that are trying to grow before a deadline.
I'll decide later. I'm going to do minimal quechua and just try to build wealth to make it thru this critical time. I do have about 8,000 gold to spend over the next 16 turns.
Look how simple gold generation can be with Kremlin
Assume you have 3 missionaries alive
Every turn:
1) spread or disband one
2) cold-whip a 0h missionary, remove from queue
3) complete a missionary (in a city that is processed first)
112
Or better. Alternate and stagger between 2 religions so you can take 2 turns for each.
T1 : 78/80 missionary
T2: whip 246/80 miss, remove from queue, complete one elsewhere
246 
You spend 1 pop and 158 organic hammers. Not great compared to WonderBread gold, but for strike gold...priceless.
lol. I could work it so STRIKE eats a missionary instead of me disbanding! It just gets better.
Assume you have 3 missionaries alive
Every turn:
1) spread or disband one
2) cold-whip a 0h missionary, remove from queue
3) complete a missionary (in a city that is processed first)
112
Or better. Alternate and stagger between 2 religions so you can take 2 turns for each.
T1 : 78/80 missionary
T2: whip 246/80 miss, remove from queue, complete one elsewhere
246
You spend 1 pop and 158 organic hammers. Not great compared to WonderBread gold, but for strike gold...priceless.
lol. I could work it so STRIKE eats a missionary instead of me disbanding! It just gets better.
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I should tweak the city plans one (last?) time. Mostly to prep whips for post-Kremlin.
I also have a tweaked ExecSpread plan that needs more tweaks, and I'll post it when I finally get to that point.
Changes affecting immediate build/MM plans and workers:
- No GM trade mission, so Cuzco doesn't have to grow.
- Man up! and get Mining Inc 269 instead of 270. (Cuzco has to do 3 execs without Bureau for 2t) No one can whip until 271, so whip OF doesn't come anywhere until 272 (that part didn't really change).
- Get Communism by T275! and Kremlin T276.
- Ignore AWat gold. Too late. So maybe work in more chops for execs and save on pre-kremlin population.
- bypass N.Cuzco in the exec plan using one railroad. Consider other bypasses.
I also have a tweaked ExecSpread plan that needs more tweaks, and I'll post it when I finally get to that point.
Changes affecting immediate build/MM plans and workers:
- No GM trade mission, so Cuzco doesn't have to grow.
- Man up! and get Mining Inc 269 instead of 270. (Cuzco has to do 3 execs without Bureau for 2t) No one can whip until 271, so whip OF doesn't come anywhere until 272 (that part didn't really change).
- Get Communism by T275! and Kremlin T276.
- Ignore AWat gold. Too late. So maybe work in more chops for execs and save on pre-kremlin population.
- bypass N.Cuzco in the exec plan using one railroad. Consider other bypasses.
City build plans (revised 3)
- Still planning to use either +18h or +30h(with metals) for at least the first ~3 turns to do exec spread without slavery for a short while. This is the case where I get Mining 269 and can't get a whip overflow until 272. Then give away resources a 2nd time. All but one silver and one gold. I'll have to DoW to get them back quickly. I can't wait 10 turns this 2nd time.
Every turn: (after 260-269) Check that there are no new metals captured or connected. if so, gift away.
Cuzco +25% and +75%, 3 execs, size 12
258 finish knight
259 gift metals
quechua
~264 (probably take back corn)
267 Q (some OF)
268 Q (~60 base OF)
269 (railroad) Cancel all metal deals for +30h making base-h >80h.
exec chop90
270 exec chop74
T271 GS born, so: (slavery, bureau,FreeReligion)OrgRel
exec
Trade away mining resources to save money soon?
Hamburg 25%, 2 execs, no whipping, +30h mining
MM to grow 2
prep3 spy 26h = 78/80
q
T-1 quechua (maxOF) Last turn to build Q's anywhere
T+0 spy (80 OF) 64 baseh
T+1 exec, chop 90 (still has caste hammers)
T+2 exec, chop 74
N Cuzco (workshop/mines here? no, not for this plan...)
starve2, size 8
Note: when starving, give corn back to Cuzco
271 whip2 forge (small OF)
272 whip3 exec
skip in exec plan
GiftWestCuzco (was stealing here) no budda
grow
chop1 into forge
whip forge1 (about 78 OF)
T+4 chop1 exec, might need some mining hammers
Angora, 2 execs
chop 4
Oporto (no budda)
grow
prep settler 2t (64/300)
T-2 Q (29/30)
T-1 Q maxOF
wealth
whip3 settler
exec, maybe chop 1 (74)
Lisbon, can't whip, GS
chop 2
Chicago
grow2
prep7t forge 155/360
wealth
(grows to size 8)
272-275 prep4t settler
276 forge2
T+8 settler 3
Paris, 1 exec, then more later.
(needs a workshop or 2)
Has spare forests
grow 1
T-1 Q, maxOF
wealth
T+4 settler whip3
T+5 exec
Berlin
add food to bin
prep2t settler
259 Q
Q
whip? settler3
Thess, needs a mine, use coal too
8t forge
5t colesseum
whip1 forge (maxOF)
whip2 colesseum
exec
grow
Constant, 2 execs, could use a couple mines
when no metal, prep2 Q
prep1 settler
prep5 coless
Q
wealth
whip3 settler
exec
whip2 colesseum
chop74 exec
Munich (needs MP), has full mining hammers
Q
wealth
whip3 settler
Adrian
grow
Q
wealth
whip2 settler
Istanbul
settler 74
wb
Q
wealth
whip3 settler if pre-K
else whip wb, or add prep to settler
exec
Ankara
Q
wealth
whip2 settler
Edirne, work 9 sci now still has GS duty,
T271-272 prep settler
whip3 settler
chop1
(could send execs to the coast, or could also chop2 AWat)
Tiwanaku
forge2 (small OF)
6/60 wb1
settler3
Gems, 2 execs, no budda
11t forge prep
forge 1
chop90 exec
chop 90, chop 74 exec
Boston (lumbermills. save forests for space part)
prep settler 130
K+ whip settler2
exec
Machu, N SeafoodIsle size 14. skip these
Seattle,no whip
prep wb
Atlanta (could use a workshop)
grow
prep colesseum 37
k+ coles2
S SeafoodIsle
K+ forge2 (small OF into wb)
wb1?
settler2
SE Isle, HorseSushi, no budda
K+ forge2 (small OF into wb)
wb1
settler2
Southport
3/60 wb
forge2
wb1 OF into wb
wb1, resolve after mining hammers (for strike gold) ?
Ollan...
forge
Moscow
forge
prep colesseum
colesseum2
Ecbatana (MM for library), size 8
irrigate corn?
grow
prep3 settler
chop 74 exec
Pasar, grow to size 5, 2 execs
(could add a farm, but don't want to)
prep6 forge 144/360
prep1 cat 8/100
max food
273 cat2
(must grow back 3->4)
274 forge2
275 exec chop90
276 exec, chop74
Novgorod (no budda)
grow to 7
K+ forge2
settler
Maastr
258 ? (chopped)
prep3 forge
forge2
272 exec, chop1
Susa (MM to grow)
grow, +8 food
prep coless 37
K+0: coless2
exec
prep3 settler for coast
whip settler2
Persep
mm for 27 hammers
259-260 q
30/80 spy1
chop1
LA
wealth
K+0: forge2
galley1
Amsterdam, no execs (overflow into IW), 6 chops, 2 whips
work eng
grow to 8
258 ?
259-260 q
261-275? IW
(wait for kremlin whips)
K+0: whip elephant1
K+1: IW
K+2: xbow1
K+3: chop6? IW
SanFran
wealth
prep forge
forge2
Washington
prep forge
whip?? settler?
forge2
Hague, 1 exec, work forest, needs workshop
prep5 Forge 156
prep library 67
271 : forge2
272 : wealth
273 chop exec
prep B.Temple 37
K+0: whip temple2
library2
chop3 Nat Park
Utrecht, 2 execs, size 11
work food
prep5 Forge 156
prep7 colesseum 98
prep1 elephant
forge2,
coles2
exec
whip2 elephant
chop1 exec
Canterbury, 2 execs
prep colesseum 37
exec chop2
K+0: whip2 coles
exec
Corihua..., Huamanga, Vilcas, Vilcamba, no budda
lh2
forge
If can't grow back to 4 in time to whip forge, then whip workboat
Middleburg, work 1 coast
grow 1
prep1 forge
prep terrace like 130
wealth
K+0: forge2
terrace1
exec chop1
Delft (give away, recap -- twice)
chop2 forge
chop2 exec
Nijmegen (recapture before 275?)
is there a forge here?
chop2 or3? exec
Philly, workshop
prep forge 56
prep terrace 11
wealth
K+0: terrace2
forge2
exec
York (stay at size 14) Only for a while, cus doing 2 execs now.Will starve to 13 anyway. No, I can save it if Warwick pops borders. needs a couple workshops.
culture
260-? terrace 44
prep settler 130
268 Q
270 wealth
pre-K whip Terrace2
277 exec
280 settler2
281 exec
Warwick
culture (borders)
prep forge 56
K+0: forge2
wealth
exec
Hastings
Q, maxOF
colesseum 37
K+0: coles2
exec
- Still planning to use either +18h or +30h(with metals) for at least the first ~3 turns to do exec spread without slavery for a short while. This is the case where I get Mining 269 and can't get a whip overflow until 272. Then give away resources a 2nd time. All but one silver and one gold. I'll have to DoW to get them back quickly. I can't wait 10 turns this 2nd time.
Every turn: (after 260-269) Check that there are no new metals captured or connected. if so, gift away.
Cuzco +25% and +75%, 3 execs, size 12
258 finish knight
259 gift metals
quechua
~264 (probably take back corn)
267 Q (some OF)
268 Q (~60 base OF)
269 (railroad) Cancel all metal deals for +30h making base-h >80h.
exec chop90
270 exec chop74
T271 GS born, so: (slavery, bureau,
exec
Trade away mining resources to save money soon?
Hamburg 25%, 2 execs, no whipping, +30h mining
MM to grow 2
prep3 spy 26h = 78/80
q
T-1 quechua (maxOF) Last turn to build Q's anywhere
T+0 spy (80 OF) 64 baseh
T+1 exec, chop 90 (still has caste hammers)
T+2 exec, chop 74
N Cuzco (workshop/mines here? no, not for this plan...)
starve2, size 8
Note: when starving, give corn back to Cuzco
272 whip3 exec
skip in exec plan
GiftWestCuzco (was stealing here) no budda
grow
chop1 into forge
whip forge1 (about 78 OF)
T+4 chop1 exec, might need some mining hammers
Angora, 2 execs
chop 4
Oporto (no budda)
grow
prep settler 2t (64/300)
T-2 Q (29/30)
T-1 Q maxOF
wealth
whip3 settler
exec, maybe chop 1 (74)
Lisbon, can't whip, GS
chop 2
Chicago
grow2
prep7t forge 155/360
wealth
(grows to size 8)
272-275 prep4t settler
276 forge2
T+8 settler 3
Paris, 1 exec, then more later.
(needs a workshop or 2)
Has spare forests
grow 1
T-1 Q, maxOF
wealth
T+4 settler whip3
T+5 exec
Berlin
add food to bin
prep2t settler
259 Q
Q
whip? settler3
Thess, needs a mine, use coal too
8t forge
5t colesseum
whip1 forge (maxOF)
whip2 colesseum
exec
grow
Constant, 2 execs, could use a couple mines
when no metal, prep2 Q
prep1 settler
prep5 coless
Q
wealth
whip3 settler
exec
whip2 colesseum
chop74 exec
Munich (needs MP), has full mining hammers
Q
wealth
whip3 settler
Adrian
grow
Q
wealth
whip2 settler
Istanbul
settler 74
wb
Q
wealth
whip3 settler if pre-K
else whip wb, or add prep to settler
exec
Ankara
Q
wealth
whip2 settler
Edirne, work 9 sci now still has GS duty,
T271-272 prep settler
whip3 settler
chop1
(could send execs to the coast, or could also chop2 AWat)
Tiwanaku
forge2 (small OF)
6/60 wb1
settler3
Gems, 2 execs, no budda
11t forge prep
forge 1
chop90 exec
chop 90, chop 74 exec
Boston (lumbermills. save forests for space part)
prep settler 130
K+ whip settler2
exec
Machu, N SeafoodIsle size 14. skip these
Seattle,no whip
prep wb
Atlanta (could use a workshop)
grow
prep colesseum 37
k+ coles2
S SeafoodIsle
K+ forge2 (small OF into wb)
wb1?
settler2
SE Isle, HorseSushi, no budda
K+ forge2 (small OF into wb)
wb1
settler2
Southport
3/60 wb
forge2
wb1 OF into wb
wb1, resolve after mining hammers (for strike gold) ?
Ollan...
forge
Moscow
forge
prep colesseum
colesseum2
Ecbatana (MM for library), size 8
irrigate corn?
grow
prep3 settler
chop 74 exec
Pasar, grow to size 5, 2 execs
(could add a farm, but don't want to)
prep6 forge 144/360
prep1 cat 8/100
max food
273 cat2
(must grow back 3->4)
274 forge2
275 exec chop90
276 exec, chop74
Novgorod (no budda)
grow to 7
K+ forge2
settler
Maastr
258 ? (chopped)
prep3 forge
forge2
272 exec, chop1
Susa (MM to grow)
grow, +8 food
prep coless 37
K+0: coless2
exec
prep3 settler for coast
whip settler2
Persep
mm for 27 hammers
259-260 q
30/80 spy1
chop1
LA
wealth
K+0: forge2
galley1
Amsterdam, no execs (overflow into IW), 6 chops, 2 whips
work eng
grow to 8
258 ?
259-260 q
261-275? IW
(wait for kremlin whips)
K+0: whip elephant1
K+1: IW
K+2: xbow1
K+3: chop6? IW
SanFran
wealth
prep forge
forge2
Washington
prep forge
whip?? settler?
forge2
Hague, 1 exec, work forest, needs workshop
prep5 Forge 156
prep library 67
271 : forge2
272 : wealth
273 chop exec
prep B.Temple 37
K+0: whip temple2
library2
chop3 Nat Park
Utrecht, 2 execs, size 11
work food
prep5 Forge 156
prep7 colesseum 98
prep1 elephant
forge2,
coles2
exec
whip2 elephant
chop1 exec
Canterbury, 2 execs
prep colesseum 37
exec chop2
K+0: whip2 coles
exec
Corihua..., Huamanga, Vilcas, Vilcamba, no budda
lh2
forge
If can't grow back to 4 in time to whip forge, then whip workboat
Middleburg, work 1 coast
grow 1
prep1 forge
prep terrace like 130
wealth
K+0: forge2
terrace1
exec chop1
Delft (give away, recap -- twice)
chop2 forge
chop2 exec
Nijmegen (recapture before 275?)
is there a forge here?
chop2 or3? exec
Philly, workshop
prep forge 56
prep terrace 11
wealth
K+0: terrace2
forge2
exec
York (stay at size 14) Only for a while, cus doing 2 execs now.
culture
260-? terrace 44
prep settler 130
268 Q
270 wealth
pre-K whip Terrace2
277 exec
280 settler2
281 exec
Warwick
culture (borders)
prep forge 56
K+0: forge2
wealth
exec
Hastings
Q, maxOF
colesseum 37
K+0: coles2
exec
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Bandobras Took
Emperor
Incidentally, I can't help but chuckle at the thought of getting an earlier space race date through missionary spam. 
Turnset Report T258-269 (Mining Inc.) and then to 271 (slavery, OR)
Yep, it's 920 BC. Looking forward to inventing Steel and Corporations
T258 Nothing exciting. No real wars for a while. Just moving the army and following the build plans
T259 Gift Justin a city to steal some gold from.
Capture Sal's city and Cease Fire.
Then gift it and 3 more cities to Justin. Gift his vassal, Alex, an island.
Give away 10 metals to 5 AI. I can build Quechua again.
T260
GS born. 2nd for SciMethod. I still need 2 more for Biology.
Justin creates a new vassal, Hatty. Was she in this game before? I don't recall.
Dom limit 60%.
I attack J and his 3 vassals.
I take the greek mainland city and leave him on the island I gave him.
I take back the steal city.
Grab 2 workers.
71 total.
Hot Tip: Never give/trade resources in groups if you don't have to. Always one at a time. I was lazy and gave Peter 'Iron+copper'. Recall I want zero metal so I can build Q's. Now, due to my city gift, I lost a copper. The deal pair will cancel IBT, but I can't cancel it. That means my Q's would turn into Pikes
Hot Tip: To recover from this, I simply pillage my iron mine so I'm missing both 1 copper and 1 iron from the Peter trade. I wasn't working that 'worthless' mine anyway. 1f6h. It's not as good as a riverside workshop right now.
T261
Steel. Start IW with a planned max overflow from Quechua
bulb most of Econ.
I see my Mansa-ambush spot. Getting units in position for 263 DoW
T262
Econ
Free GM
bulb part of Constitution (after double checking that I still have a GM for Sushi)
I decide to wipe out Justin. I get 136 gold and his 3 vassals are now free agents. Two of them will cease fire.
T263
Mansa War! Finally!
I've patiently waited for Mansa to approach the final Dutch city. His stack of ~20 (brown circle) is about to go into the red circle
I was tempted to wait until the stack moved to the forest or actually all the way into the city, but I want to get moving.
I let him take Willy's Rotterdam so he's lose a bunch of units on the hills/longbows. 20 units is smaller than it was. He also has a 10 unit stack and a couple of 5's. So all my units will get to attack someone. Mostly unfortified on flat land
Long story short, I think I lost 1 unit. Killed like 30.
There are still about 8 units way down in the trap-zone. Otherwise, he's contained in his homeland.
T264
Due to my Espionage, I see a couple Mansa cities are building a grocer and a bank.
He sends a bunch of cats out to try and get my workers. Easy targets.
Then he gets brave and attacks my mace with his xbow. Good try, and he kills it with a longbow. Well, that's two less, fortified defenders.
Constitution
T265
T266
I make Louis create a new civ: Lincoln and I stick Louis on an island.
DoW Louis
T267
Corporation
Capture the Louis mainland city
Capture Portland, Mansa's most defended city. All of his cities are on flat land, so it's a bunch of 96-99% battles after bombarding.
This is the turn where I try to build 29/30 quechuas to set up non-whip overflow, so I'll need to check every city. To continue building as much wealth as possible, I'll only do the ones that are necessary to get an exec.
I may have more to report, but I'm breaking before rolling another turn.
fyi, I've now played 10 turns in the New Year and it's Jan 10. As promised
and for today's turn...
T268
Built Q's in any city that could do almost 30hpt. That way it can get ~30h overflow next turn. That OF will be saved by building wealth and used for exec production.
I think I got only 23 overflow from building Q's in my HE city.
Why do I have so much trouble with OF gold math?
![[party]](/images/smilies/partytime.gif "Party [party]")
T269, 810 BC
Liberalism, Railroad, Scientific Method
Mining Inc founded
Gift stealCity to Dutch, Steal 177
gift a couple junk cities for him to hold.
DoW, capture stealCity back. And his capital 48
This war actually adds +1 unhappy in my size 13 city which would delay the city growth to the important #14. I'll fix that in a minute.
Back to Mansa
Capture Porland and Gao
I either need to heal or move units and since I attack from my culture, no units need to enter Mansa's borders. Therefore. CeaseFire to get +happy
I forgot to move my galley thru Mansa's land before CF and closed borders.
Hmm... should I re-DoW?
Wait! he's still at war with the Dutch thanks to me.
Hot Tip: an AI will always open border if you share a war.
OB with Mansa. sailing plans continue
T270
Mining can be as much as +27h already
DoW Mansa again.
I take Djenne with ease.
btw, Thinking ahead, I've already been sending units in pairs south and as far west as possible to be picked up and galley-chained to Liz. The first 2 knights boarded last turn already. No rest for the wicked. These are some of the trailing units that had to decimate Mansa's far south stacks and didn't have time to join the fun way up north-Mansa homeland.
To save $, Trim mining output to +16h with gifts of coal, gold, etc.
T271
Take another northern, garbage city from Mansa...for 101 though.
Pillage Mansa like mad! over 100!
No question I need to stop the turnset here. I've got the slavery switch. Every city needs to re-arrange citizens and build queues. Some will whip.
The exec plan is unfolding as expected. 4 built this turn, double checked that the 5 for next turn are ready. The 'worker ballet' is on. Workers are dancing all over the map trying to stay 2 turns ahead of the exec spread--which is fanning out like a spider web. They need to look ahead 2 turns, cus any that are needed to chop next turn would have moved onto a forest already this turn (if it's not roaded.) So you have to cancel the orders of a worker this turn if it needs to move next turn and chop the following. That's why I say 2 turn look-ahead.
The next 4 turns are going to be tight. (goal Communism)
OrgRel upkeep is going to hurt. And losing caste hammers. Exec spread will be 950 over 4t. (fyi, my corp spreads are exactly 50 I was expecting a little more, I never looked up how this is calculated.)
Yep, it's 920 BC. Looking forward to inventing Steel and Corporations
T258 Nothing exciting. No real wars for a while. Just moving the army and following the build plans
T259 Gift Justin a city to steal some gold from.
Capture Sal's city and Cease Fire.
Then gift it and 3 more cities to Justin. Gift his vassal, Alex, an island.
Give away 10 metals to 5 AI. I can build Quechua again.
T260
GS born. 2nd for SciMethod. I still need 2 more for Biology.
Justin creates a new vassal, Hatty. Was she in this game before? I don't recall.
Dom limit 60%.
I attack J and his 3 vassals.
I take the greek mainland city and leave him on the island I gave him.
I take back the steal city.
Grab 2 workers.
71 total. Hot Tip: Never give/trade resources in groups if you don't have to. Always one at a time. I was lazy and gave Peter 'Iron+copper'. Recall I want zero metal so I can build Q's. Now, due to my city gift, I lost a copper. The deal pair will cancel IBT, but I can't cancel it. That means my Q's would turn into Pikes Hot Tip: To recover from this, I simply pillage my iron mine so I'm missing both 1 copper and 1 iron from the Peter trade. I wasn't working that 'worthless' mine anyway. 1f6h. It's not as good as a riverside workshop right now.T261
Steel. Start IW with a planned max overflow from Quechua
bulb most of Econ.
I see my Mansa-ambush spot. Getting units in position for 263 DoW
T262
Econ
Free GM
bulb part of Constitution (after double checking that I still have a GM for Sushi)
I decide to wipe out Justin. I get 136 gold and his 3 vassals are now free agents. Two of them will cease fire.
T263
Mansa War! Finally!
I've patiently waited for Mansa to approach the final Dutch city. His stack of ~20 (brown circle) is about to go into the red circle
I was tempted to wait until the stack moved to the forest or actually all the way into the city, but I want to get moving.
I let him take Willy's Rotterdam so he's lose a bunch of units on the hills/longbows. 20 units is smaller than it was. He also has a 10 unit stack and a couple of 5's. So all my units will get to attack someone. Mostly unfortified on flat land
Long story short, I think I lost 1 unit. Killed like 30.
There are still about 8 units way down in the trap-zone. Otherwise, he's contained in his homeland.
T264
Due to my Espionage, I see a couple Mansa cities are building a grocer and a bank.
He sends a bunch of cats out to try and get my workers. Easy targets.
Then he gets brave and attacks my mace with his xbow. Good try, and he kills it with a longbow. Well, that's two less, fortified defenders.
Constitution
T265
T266
I make Louis create a new civ: Lincoln and I stick Louis on an island.
DoW Louis
T267
Corporation
Capture the Louis mainland city
Capture Portland, Mansa's most defended city. All of his cities are on flat land, so it's a bunch of 96-99% battles after bombarding.
This is the turn where I try to build 29/30 quechuas to set up non-whip overflow, so I'll need to check every city. To continue building as much wealth as possible, I'll only do the ones that are necessary to get an exec.
I may have more to report, but I'm breaking before rolling another turn.
fyi, I've now played 10 turns in the New Year and it's Jan 10. As promised
and for today's turn...
T268
Built Q's in any city that could do almost 30hpt. That way it can get ~30h overflow next turn. That OF will be saved by building wealth and used for exec production.
I think I got only 23
overflow from building Q's in my HE city.Why do I have so much trouble with OF gold math?
Spoiler :
T269, 810 BC
Liberalism, Railroad, Scientific Method
Mining Inc founded
Gift stealCity to Dutch, Steal 177
gift a couple junk cities for him to hold.
DoW, capture stealCity back. And his capital 48
This war actually adds +1 unhappy in my size 13 city which would delay the city growth to the important #14. I'll fix that in a minute.
Back to Mansa
Capture Porland and Gao
I either need to heal or move units and since I attack from my culture, no units need to enter Mansa's borders. Therefore. CeaseFire to get +happy
I forgot to move my galley thru Mansa's land before CF and closed borders.Hmm... should I re-DoW?
Wait! he's still at war with the Dutch thanks to me.
Hot Tip: an AI will always open border if you share a war.OB with Mansa. sailing plans continue
T270
Mining can be as much as +27h already
DoW Mansa again.
I take Djenne with ease.
btw, Thinking ahead, I've already been sending units in pairs south and as far west as possible to be picked up and galley-chained to Liz. The first 2 knights boarded last turn already. No rest for the wicked. These are some of the trailing units that had to decimate Mansa's far south stacks and didn't have time to join the fun way up north-Mansa homeland.
To save $, Trim mining output to +16h with gifts of coal, gold, etc.
T271
Take another northern, garbage city from Mansa...for 101
though.Pillage Mansa like mad! over 100
!No question I need to stop the turnset here. I've got the slavery switch. Every city needs to re-arrange citizens and build queues. Some will whip.
The exec plan is unfolding as expected. 4 built this turn, double checked that the 5 for next turn are ready. The 'worker ballet' is on. Workers are dancing all over the map trying to stay 2 turns ahead of the exec spread--which is fanning out like a spider web. They need to look ahead 2 turns, cus any that are needed to chop next turn would have moved onto a forest already this turn (if it's not roaded.) So you have to cancel the orders of a worker this turn if it needs to move next turn and chop the following. That's why I say 2 turn look-ahead.
The next 4 turns are going to be tight. (goal Communism)
OrgRel upkeep is going to hurt. And losing caste hammers. Exec spread will be 950
over 4t. (fyi, my corp spreads are exactly 50 I was expecting a little more, I never looked up how this is calculated.)
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So I squeezed research so hard to get 269 Mining Inc that I could now squeeze even more to get Mining 268!
Update: nevermind. I can't get Mining 268. It's 269 and I'm very happy/proud of that.
The problem is: I can't whip until 271
, the birth of Bio's GS. It's hard enough for the capital to produce execs without slavery.
With 269 mining, I needed 4 cities that could build execs using non-whip overflow, organic hammers and chops. Not so bad since only 1 city builds and exec on the 1st turn. Then that same city and one more. Then those 2 cites and 2 more new ones.
But 268 mining would mean 8-9 cities have to deal with this. Let's check the list and see if most can handle it...wait... or? thinking out loud...
I'm not bulbing/researching Bio right after Lib/RR like I had been planning for so long. I'm doing Communism. So, could I let the Bio GS slide? Or maybe finish it with just 2 library scientists? Let's check the save! and the spreadsheet!
Plan A
Leave caste in place til 271, but take Bureau T266 to allow Cuzco to make 4 execs without whipping. Now Cuzco can cover turn 271 which is where a city like Munich has to whip first before an exec.
Plan A was working pretty well, but taking Bureau 5t sooner means about -400g more upkeep. Could delay Comm/Kremlin 1t. Let's see about B...
Plan B. Take slavery, bureau, and (TBD) on T270. My GS will arrive 3-4t late on T274 or 275. If I happen to get Communism early, I could always research 1t of AssemLine (at 0%), just to delay cus recall I can't trade for free compass until after I bulb Bio. Then it's Optics, Medicine.
I'll keep Pacifism for 5t so the GS birth delay isn't too long.
So I won't have the OrgRel benefit or missionaries until T275. I don't think I have many building whips planned that early. I might just do OrgRel 270, need to think...
Thought of a small issue. I have to bulb SciMethod completely (2 bulbs) on the turn I get Lib/RR in order to start Communism. That means, I lose the +50% Parthenon bonus in the city producing the GS for Bio. Back to the spreadsheet!
Looks like a loss of about 50-60gpp, so it will be a 2 turn delay. I think that decides the debate of Pacifism vs. OrgRel. I'll need Pacifism for 5t or longer.
Update: nevermind. I can't get Mining 268. It's 269 and I'm very happy/proud of that.
The problem is: I can't whip until 271
, the birth of Bio's GS. It's hard enough for the capital to produce execs without slavery.With 269 mining, I needed 4 cities that could build execs using non-whip overflow, organic hammers and chops. Not so bad since only 1 city builds and exec on the 1st turn. Then that same city and one more. Then those 2 cites and 2 more new ones.
But 268 mining would mean 8-9 cities have to deal with this. Let's check the list and see if most can handle it...wait...
or? thinking out loud...I'm not bulbing/researching Bio right after Lib/RR like I had been planning for so long. I'm doing Communism. So, could I let the Bio GS slide? Or maybe finish it with just 2 library scientists? Let's check the save! and the spreadsheet!
Plan A
Leave caste in place til 271, but take Bureau T266 to allow Cuzco to make 4 execs without whipping. Now Cuzco can cover turn 271 which is where a city like Munich has to whip first before an exec.
Plan A was working pretty well, but taking Bureau 5t sooner means about -400g more upkeep. Could delay Comm/Kremlin 1t. Let's see about B...
Plan B. Take slavery, bureau, and (TBD) on T270. My GS will arrive 3-4t late on T274 or 275. If I happen to get Communism early, I could always research 1t of AssemLine (at 0%), just to delay cus recall I can't trade for free compass until after I bulb Bio. Then it's Optics, Medicine.
I'll keep Pacifism for 5t so the GS birth delay isn't too long.
So I won't have the OrgRel benefit or missionaries until T275. I don't think I have many building whips planned that early. I might just do OrgRel 270, need to think...
Thought of a small issue. I have to bulb SciMethod completely (2 bulbs) on the turn I get Lib/RR in order to start Communism. That means, I lose the +50% Parthenon bonus in the city producing the GS for Bio. Back to the spreadsheet!
Looks like a loss of about 50-60gpp, so it will be a 2 turn delay. I think that decides the debate of Pacifism vs. OrgRel. I'll need Pacifism for 5t or longer.
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Crazy game.
How much pop do you have right now? I.e. is a GM bulb much stronger than a trade mission (given that 1)? Or is or just that you only need raw beakers and not gold at this point?
Cuzco was only size 11. If I had pushed it to size 12, the GM mission would have been 4500
My population got me 5400
, so I went with the bulb. Easier too.
Instead of trying to finish the Bio GS while in slavery and Pacifism, I could take slavery, OrgRel for 5t, then caste, pacifism for 5t.
No, I really want to be in slavery when Kremlin comes. Crap. I think I should go back to Plan A. Get my Bio GS on 271 by staying in caste til then. Slavery starts 271. Deal with it.
Why do I care so much about T268 Mining Inc? Just do it on T269--which is still 1t faster than I was planning recently.
Because, in my mind, the entire game ends X turns after Mining Inc. I don't know what X is, but delaying the start of mining spread delays the end of the game. But it might not be that simple. Could be a combo of mining, sushi and/or power plant readiness.
Let me double check my calcs on research. How the heck did I manage T268?
...checking...
Oops. I can't make 268, but that was a fun exercise!
Forget it. Back to 269 mining. I think I made some good tweaks to my exec spread plan tho.
No, I really want to be in slavery when Kremlin comes. Crap. I think I should go back to Plan A. Get my Bio GS on 271 by staying in caste til then. Slavery starts 271. Deal with it.
Why do I care so much about T268 Mining Inc? Just do it on T269--which is still 1t faster than I was planning recently.
Because, in my mind, the entire game ends X turns after Mining Inc. I don't know what X is, but delaying the start of mining spread delays the end of the game. But it might not be that simple. Could be a combo of mining, sushi and/or power plant readiness.
Let me double check my calcs on research. How the heck did I manage T268?
...checking...
Oops. I can't make 268, but that was a fun exercise!
Forget it. Back to 269 mining. I think I made some good tweaks to my exec spread plan tho.
Hot TipWhat else can you do with a GG?
You may recall I used one GG to make a galley with 6 movement. I just used the galley, yet again these last 2 turns with my amphibious elephants to capture 2 Mansa islands (defended by one chariot
)Another favorite thing I do is to make a 2-movement Treb so it can keep up with my knights (or HAs)
Even tho I'm in 'no metal' zone right now, I can still capture an Iron, I just have to give it away to keep up the Quechua. This just happened. Mansa's island was settled on Iron.
So, put 2 and 2 together and what do you get?:
Iron island + I just made a 2 movement Treb.
Spoiler :
Bureau is going to cost me 100gpt in upkeep. I can't afford that. It could delay Communism/Kremlin 1t. I'll have to make the execs without it.
OrgRel also costs me 100gpt, but I think I have to suck it up. I'd like to start a missionary gold plan (that I haven't figured out yet), but more importantly, I have my buildings prepped for whipping with the idea that I'll have +25% hammer bonus. Maybe after I get IW and Kremlin whipped and then whip all the post-Kremlin buildings, then I can take FreeReligion to finish Medicine. Back burner.
OrgRel also costs me 100gpt, but I think I have to suck it up. I'd like to start a missionary gold plan (that I haven't figured out yet), but more importantly, I have my buildings prepped for whipping with the idea that I'll have +25% hammer bonus. Maybe after I get IW and Kremlin whipped and then whip all the post-Kremlin buildings, then I can take FreeReligion to finish Medicine. Back burner.
at T265. Halfway into my metal-less 10t window. How did that work out? any quechua to show for it?
My HeroicEpic captial built one per turn with wealth overflow, but other than that, I could only justify a couple more for MP.
Building 100 q's now costs 3000h which is like -3500
Not to mention -100gpt upkeep on those.
I'm not spending anything that's not necessary to squeeze out 269 Mining Inc.
I need to do whatever it takes to get mining Inc, then immediately whatever it takes to get Communism, then anything to get Kremlin in 1t, then AssemLine. It's a subtle thing, but important to note that these milestones are prioritized. Meaning, it's not acceptable to delay one in order to speed up the next one. An obvious example is that I could get Communism way earlier if that was my highest priority, but rushing to it cannot add any delay to mining inc.
pretty obvious I guess and I've probably preached this all before. Back to my point...
So, when should I build quechua?
Recall: they are necessary to keep my army, execs and workboats alive during early strike. The only others that also work are: siege units, but they're either obsolete and/or expensive (cannon). Once exec spread is done and fish are all netted, then I just need to protect my workers and that can be done with just about any unit (workboats or explorers are cheapest)
I envision a 2nd, very brief, metal-less time period. After Krelmin, but before STRIKE.
I've just now decided it will go like this:
update: Dang! Forgot about Machine Guns again. Use cats instead of quechua in the plan below
Dropping metal doesn't give you quechua after RR. It's machine guns.
Turn K-1: On the turn I get Comm. a.k.a. the turn I'm chopping to complete Kremlin, give away all metals--if I haven't already done so to save on Corp expenses. Note to self: make sure Kremlin 1t plan is not using full mining hammers
Start ~50 catsquechua. Skip cities that are population challenged for exec spread duty.
K+0, whip them all for +168h
K+1: 40 catsquechua and will produce 40 more next turn with OF.
I get at least 5000
Set all cities that are building wealth to build research. Spend that gold fast! This should be a loss of ~2500gpt.
K+2, added 80 cats total.Burn up that cash. No OF cash.
Take your metals back (by force).
Start the STRIKE economy.
-----------------------------------------------
My HeroicEpic captial built one per turn with wealth overflow, but other than that, I could only justify a couple more for MP.
Building 100 q's now costs 3000h which is like -3500
Not to mention -100gpt upkeep on those.
I'm not spending anything that's not necessary to squeeze out 269 Mining Inc.
I need to do whatever it takes to get mining Inc, then immediately whatever it takes to get Communism, then anything to get Kremlin in 1t, then AssemLine. It's a subtle thing, but important to note that these milestones are prioritized. Meaning, it's not acceptable to delay one in order to speed up the next one. An obvious example is that I could get Communism way earlier if that was my highest priority, but rushing to it cannot add any delay to mining inc.
pretty obvious I guess and I've probably preached this all before. Back to my point...So, when should I build quechua?
Recall: they are necessary to keep my army, execs and workboats alive during early strike. The only others that also work are: siege units, but they're either obsolete and/or expensive (cannon). Once exec spread is done and fish are all netted, then I just need to protect my workers and that can be done with just about any unit (workboats or explorers are cheapest)
I envision a 2nd, very brief, metal-less time period. After Krelmin, but before STRIKE.
I've just now decided it will go like this:
update: Dang! Forgot about Machine Guns again. Use cats instead of quechua in the plan below
Dropping metal doesn't give you quechua after RR. It's machine guns.
Turn K-1: On the turn I get Comm. a.k.a. the turn I'm chopping to complete Kremlin, give away all metals--if I haven't already done so to save on Corp expenses. Note to self: make sure Kremlin 1t plan is not using full mining hammers
Start ~50 cats
K+0, whip them all for +168h
K+1: 40 cats
I get at least 5000
K+2, added 80 cats total.
Take your metals back (by force).
Start the STRIKE economy.
-----------------------------------------------
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Bandobras Took
Emperor
What else can you do with a GG?
You may recall I used one GG to make a galley with 6 movement. I just used the galley, yet again these last 2 turns with my amphibious elephants to capture 2 Mansa islands (defended by one chariot
No. No! NO! He was right all along!
Again, Forgot about quechua being obsolete even without metal after RR.
New plan for creating cats edited above.
I also really screwed up the STRIKE sacrifice testing and updated that..
couple highlights:
Knights die early along with cannons
Only way to save them is Q's and cats.
Explorers actually work better than I thought. They preserve my workers AND workboats
New plan for creating cats edited above.
I also really screwed up the STRIKE sacrifice testing and updated that..
For the most part, they die in this order, but sometimes a few from one group seem to survive and die later with the next group.
- Quechua die first
- Catapults are next to die (and quechua randomly mixed in).
- Then all trebs
- Then all Artillery+cannon,
- All empty transports (neutral). (Execs on boats are safe as long as there is military to kill.)
- longbows--and I tried expensive Infantry (280h). They randomly die as a group too. update: also Quechua inside my borders started dying.
- Missionaries (neutral). Might be important to note that these save my workers that are out traveling or forting metals or whatever.
- workers (neutral land only)
- scouts/Explorers (neutral) mixed in with galleys/galleons (in my culture)
- Now Workboats in neutral water
- Execs in my culture
(then caravels?)
- workers in my culture
Conclusions
- Sacrificial units need to be moved to neutral tiles.
- I'll need quechua/cats only long enough to protect my army and boats until I've beaten everyone down to one empty city. Then I can switch to units that I can produce late-game. The cheapest ones turn out to be: workboat, explorer, missionaries.
100 quechua will pay for 20 turns of strike. That should be enough time to kill everyone and get settlers loaded into my transports to protect them.
Once the AIs are beaten down, all I need to do is continue to settle cities, spread corps, and use workers...
Execs & workers need to end the turn in my culture and they will be spared.
couple highlights:
Knights die early along with cannons
Only way to save them is Q's and cats.
Explorers actually work better than I thought. They preserve my workers AND workboats
I didn't actually plan to have amphibious elephants. They just ended up being my team way out in the ocean capturing and re-capturing the warrior-defended vassal gift cities. The fastest way to keep killing these cities over and over is to have a galley pick them up after they attacked the city and have no movement left. One elephant can even handle 2 cities pretty quickly.Amphib seemed like a better promo than Combat III.
Adapting plans again.
With Mining date locked in, I turn my attention to the date I will get Communism.
I roughly thought it would be around T276-277 because I can't start it until T271 when I bulb SciMeth.
I was thinking I had to put 0% into AssemLine for 2t. Even at 0%, I'd 'waste' 1200 over 2t.
But! what if I bulb SM early? On T269, when I finished Lib/RR.
GLib obsolete: no big deal.
Parthenon lost. That hurts my Biology GS, but (checking spreadsheet) I see that I can still get it before I'd need it. Recall: I need it by the time I get Communism, so I can go to sushi..
So, SM on 269. At my current max research rate (3000bpt), I could do Communism in 5t, but I don't have the cash for that...do I?
That would make Communism T274!
Let's see...
I think I can get to T271 (slavery, OR) with my cash + conquest. So I need about 2500 to make it 3 more turns (remember, I'm spending 250gpt on exec spread)
Maybe only 2000 if I speed up the conquest.
I now know, worst case, is T276 Communism if I just adjust the slider.
But since I'm in slavery, can I find a way to whip 2000+? Need to think...
No, I can't stomach the idea of whipping a ton right before Kremlin.
And losing population just means losing research rate.
However, I still have scouts available.
But I suppose missionaries are better. Problem with that is, I had already planned to set up a big missionary gold plan starting T271. That takes time--which I don't have for the Communism rush.
Forests would be 90 if chopped into an already overflowing build.
With Mining date locked in, I turn my attention to the date I will get Communism.
I roughly thought it would be around T276-277 because I can't start it until T271 when I bulb SciMeth.
I was thinking I had to put 0% into AssemLine for 2t. Even at 0%, I'd 'waste' 1200
over 2t.But! what if I bulb SM early? On T269, when I finished Lib/RR.
GLib obsolete: no big deal.
Parthenon lost. That hurts my Biology GS, but (checking spreadsheet) I see that I can still get it before I'd need it. Recall: I need it by the time I get Communism, so I can go to sushi..
So, SM on 269. At my current max research rate (3000bpt), I could do Communism in 5t, but I don't have the cash for that...do I?
That would make Communism T274!
Let's see...
I think I can get to T271 (slavery, OR) with my cash + conquest. So I need about 2500
to make it 3 more turns (remember, I'm spending 250gpt on exec spread)Maybe only 2000 if I speed up the conquest.
I now know, worst case, is T276 Communism if I just adjust the slider.
But since I'm in slavery, can I find a way to whip 2000+
? Need to think...No, I can't stomach the idea of whipping a ton right before Kremlin.
And losing population just means losing research rate.
However, I still have scouts available.
But I suppose missionaries are better. Problem with that is, I had already planned to set up a big missionary gold plan starting T271. That takes time--which I don't have for the Communism rush.
Forests would be 90
if chopped into an already overflowing build.
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A whlie back I considered skipping NP....
Well, I wasn't lazy. I prepared the whip plan, etc. Now, on 2nd thought, at the last minute, my analysis concludes I should skip it.
And it's not just because I'm delaying Biology for Communism.
It boils down to one thing. Why spend more worker turns on a preserve when that worker could be making a workshop?
For his effort, the worker creates +5h on a grass tile, +4h on a plains.
(assuming golden age and caste)
In my late game, that's +10 and +8 respectively.
The preserve gives me +7.5 (library). Maybe as much as +12 if I can justify uni, obs, lab, but I might skip most of those.
When I'm in slavery (no caste)
workshop gives +8b
NP citizen gives +5.75b (+2 for the hammer, 3.75 for rep + library)
The only way I can see the preserves paying off is if the N.Park city produces a GP from all those specialists. But that won't happen if I spend much time in slavery working citizens. And my next GP is 6600
N.Park. Cancelled.
Well, I wasn't lazy. I prepared the whip plan, etc. Now, on 2nd thought, at the last minute, my analysis concludes I should skip it.
And it's not just because I'm delaying Biology for Communism.
It boils down to one thing. Why spend more worker turns on a preserve when that worker could be making a workshop?
For his effort, the worker creates +5h on a grass tile, +4h on a plains.
(assuming golden age and caste)
In my late game, that's +10
and +8 respectively.The preserve gives me +7.5
(library). Maybe as much as +12 if I can justify uni, obs, lab, but I might skip most of those.When I'm in slavery (no caste)
workshop gives +8b
NP citizen gives +5.75b (+2 for the hammer, 3.75 for rep + library)
The only way I can see the preserves paying off is if the N.Park city produces a GP from all those specialists. But that won't happen if I spend much time in slavery working citizens. And my next GP is 6600
N.Park. Cancelled.
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