Let's Read the Bible Once

[Borachio]

Are there any quotes in the Bible that explain why God values belief in something lacking evidence so much?

I'm not sure. The only thing that springs to mind is that business with Thomas.

What's the quote again? I'll go see if I can find it.

edit: here it is

But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my finger into the print of the nails, and thrust my hand into his side, I will not believe.

26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 28And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Nah! That's no help, is it? That's just a statement of the value of belief.

But in general terms it's just putting a value on "authority" which the Church has exploited for all its worth, I think.

 

[JollyRoger]

blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

Isn't this the basis of those Nigerian bank account scams?

 

[Rashiminos]

I don't mean to be rude - if there was evidence, you wouldn't need faith.. right?

Maybe, maybe not.

So why does God 'hide' himself, instead of coming out into the spotlight so that we can all see him and worship him?

Free will. god does not need to be worshiped.

Why hide and make us jump through hoops to find him?

See above.

Why is that part of it so important to him?

Why isn't it so important for you?

Why punish those who don't believe that he exists?

Why is it "punishment?" If you need evidence from an authority, who is god to dispute that?

 

[Borachio]

Isn't this the basis of those Nigerian bank account scams?

Those aren't scams. I've already inherited £30 million. And I'm in for several times that, any time soon.

 

[warpus]

Free will. god does not need to be worshiped.

Most Christians believe the opposite though - that God punishes those who do not accept him. To accept him, you first have to believe that he exists.

Why is it "punishment?"

Hell seems like a punishment to me.

 

[Rashiminos]

Most Christians believe the opposite though - that God punishes those who do not accept him. To accept him, you first have to believe that he exists.

Hell seems like a punishment to me.

I have been putting "God" in quotation marks so far. Maybe when I do so, I am speaking of something other?

But in general terms it's just putting a value on "authority" which the Church has exploited for all its worth, I think.

YES!

 

[Valka D'Ur]

We will have to chalk this one up as: If Moses existed, then God gave him the whole Torah as the first five books of the Bible. If modern scholars can convince enough people that both never existed, then they have every right to do so. I have no reason to go along with modern scholars.

Let's see... Moses dies in Deuteronomy chp. 34, verse 5. When did God give him the last 7 verses that happened after he died? Is there mail service in the afterlife? Was it time travel? Was Moses granted knowledge of what happened after he died?

That is because man's sin caused the whole of creation to be under bondage. Romans 8:19-22 clearly state that the whole of creation is under bondage and is waiting for redemption that is to come.

The "whole of creation" includes every particle of matter and other stuff that has ever existed. Why should bad things happen on distant planets or in some galaxy a billion light-years away just because a snake told Eve to eat some fruit? I'm pretty sure Halley's Comet hasn't done anything that requires it to be "redeemed."

Maybe "God" and/or god didn't do that. Maybe the "last creations" did something that demonstrated their will to live in the tiny, insignificant portion of creation specified (a portion that happens to have entropy)?

The WHOLE UNIVERSE is subject to entropy. The Universe is EVERYTHING. You can't have just a part of it subject to entropy.

Why am I repeating myself so much in this thread?

Could it be that much of what you're saying doesn't make any sense, and you're failing to convince us of what is illogical and unscientific?

 

[Rashiminos]

The WHOLE UNIVERSE is subject to entropy. The Universe is EVERYTHING. You can't have just a part of it subject to entropy.

Caps are fun. If the whole universe is everything, how come it cannot contain things that are not subject to entropy? Seems to me that an entropic universe is a partial universe. Or are you asserting that there cannot be such a thing that is not subject to entropy?

 

[Borachio]

Are you asserting that any whole universe must contain all conceivable objects? Logically possible or not.


So that a whole universe would have to contain, for example, a version of itself in which the whole universe did not exist? Or something.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Caps are fun. If the whole universe is everything, how come it cannot contain things that are not subject to entropy? Seems to me that an entropic universe is a partial universe. Or are you asserting that there cannot be such a thing that is not subject to entropy?

Are you saying there are things that are not subject to entropy? If so, what are they?

 

[Borachio]

Is entropy subject to entropy?

Is last Tuesday subject to entropy?

Is the Flying Spaghetti Monster subject to entropy?

Is the notion of Justice subject to entropy?

(Actually I could have written those four as one sentence. But I didn't.)

I get the impression they (and several other things) aren't. But I'm open to persuasion on the subject.

 

[Rashiminos]

Are you asserting that any whole universe must contain all conceivable objects? Logically possible or not.

No, but it's logically possible.

So that a whole universe would have to contain, for example, a version of itself in which the whole universe did not exist? Or something.

It's possible, unless you have good reason to demonstrate it's not. I'm not saying it's a certainty.

Are you saying there are things that are not subject to entropy? If so, what are they?

I'm not saying that.

Stealth edit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluctuation_theorem

 

[Borachio]

Well, as entropy is taken as the arrow of time, I'm presuming a portion of the universe that isn't subject to entropy will be a place where time does not pass.

I would expect that to be logically possible. In some sense. Given how bizarre quantum mechanics can be.

 

[Rashiminos]

Well, as entropy is taken as the arrow of time, I'm presuming a portion of the universe that isn't subject to entropy will be a place where time does not pass.

Or goes in reverse, or travels laterally, or does something else one would not expect time to do.

 

[Borachio]

So, tell me again: What actually is time?

Or indeed, what is space?

Does it make sense to talk about time "going" anywhere?

 

[bhsup]

"Time is a dimension in which events can be ordered from the past through the present into the future, and also the measure of durations of events and the intervals between them."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time

 

[Borachio]

"Time has long been a major subject of study in religion, philosophy, and science, but defining it in a manner applicable to all fields without circularity has consistently eluded scholars."

 

[timtofly]

Let's see... Moses dies in Deuteronomy chp. 34, verse 5. When did God give him the last 7 verses that happened after he died? Is there mail service in the afterlife? Was it time travel? Was Moses granted knowledge of what happened after he died?

Are you suggesting that there are tenses that are forbidden to be used in writing? Can one not write what comes after his death? Would it not work because it did actually happen, or would it not work, because it did not happen? I think that some Jews suggest that he wrote it with tears as he remembered why he was to die out in the middle of no where.

 

[Valka D'Ur]

Are you suggesting that there are tenses that are forbidden to be used in writing? Can one not write what comes after his death? Would it not work because it did actually happen, or would it not work, because it did not happen? I think that some Jews suggest that he wrote it with tears as he remembered why he was to die out in the middle of no where.

I'm saying that unless Moses was prescient or had access to time travel, he couldn't have known what was going to happen after his death. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to say that every single chapter and verse of the first 5 books were given to him before he died, since there were 7 verses that took place after he died.

 

[timtofly]

I'm saying that unless Moses was prescient or had access to time travel, he couldn't have known what was going to happen after his death. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to say that every single chapter and verse of the first 5 books were given to him before he died, since there were 7 verses that took place after he died.

I accept that everything that Moses wrote, even those last 7 or 8 verses were given to him by God. I don't believe that he made any of it up or even had visions. He met with God on Mount Sinai, and wrote down everything. There are some personal things even about Moses that God had knowledge of. It is one of those cases that Moses really had no free will in the matter, or so it seems, but that topic is already in the chamber. Everything Moses did, even in loosing his temper, at the most inconvenient of times, God knew would happen.