Let's Read the Bible Once

I still don't get it. Take me, I'm not a Christian, nor a Muslim.. nor am I Hindu. Why should I care about Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Hindu, etc. religious icons?

I mean, it's not that I despise them or anything, but why should I care about Jesus, Mohammed, Vishnu, or whoever, beyond a cursory acknowledgement?

Maybe I misunderstood your initial comment, but you made it sound like non-Christians should care about Jesus for some reason.

I get what you're saying. As a non-Christian, I wouldn't really expect you to have a spiritual interest in Jesus. My hope would be (and theoretically the hope of all Christians should be) that I live my live in a way that causes you to think, "Ya' know, there's something different about that guy. I wonder what it is."
 
Why should they? Most have been born into it, they haven't chosen it.

This gets back to a quote from earlier in this thread (I forget who said it)... There are a whole lot more people who claim to be Christians than people who actually are Christians. Being a Christian isn't something you're born into, contrary to what some might like to believe. I'm not a Christian because my parents were; I'm a Christian because I, personally, have acknowledged my sin and Christ's death on my behalf as payment for my sin.
 
Far too many are afraid of men, rather than God. :(

That said, I know some amazing Christians. I've got more than a couple people that I love who're incredibly decent people, and they certainly credit some of their behaviour to their faith.
 
It always amuses me when non-Christians think they have some sort of authority to judge someone else's relationship with God and his Son.
 
Death is a result of entropy.

Entropy would be the result of the curse on Adam. While I hold that God created a mature and flawless universe, it was allowed to obtain the entropy that would eventually lead to it's destruction.

I suppose some may look at it as just the solar system we live in that suffers from this entropy.
 
It always amuses me when non-Christians think they have some sort of authority to judge someone else's relationship with God and his Son.
About as amusing as when Christians think they have some sort of authority to judge my non-relationship with an entity that I consider to be imaginary, hmm?

I respect Christians who live what they say Jesus taught. My own grandfather - an atheist - once told me that the world would be a much better place if everyone lived by the Golden Rule.

It's the hypocrisy I don't respect.

I suppose some may look at it as just the solar system we live in that suffers from this entropy.
Entropy exists throughout the Universe, not just our tiny bit of it.
 
Death is result of sin. God warned that death will occur had they disobeyed God. (Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.)

But they didn't die, the serpent said their eyes would be open knowing good and evil and thats what happened - read God's report to his buddies. Thats when God decided to block their way to the tree of life and kicked them out of the Garden.

And people were made on the 6th day before all this stuff happened in the Garden, thats how Cain found a wife and why he was worried about being killed.
 
It always amuses me when non-Christians think they have some sort of authority to judge someone else's relationship with God and his Son.
I assure you anytime Christians do something outside of common sense the authority is always there....;)
 
But they didn't die, the serpent said their eyes would be open knowing good and evil and thats what happened - read God's report to his buddies. Thats when God decided to block their way to the tree of life and kicked them out of the Garden.

And people were made on the 6th day before all this stuff happened in the Garden, thats how Cain found a wife and why he was worried about being killed.

I am not sure when the "gaps" started to appear, but most would hold that day nine was the dawn of the fallen era.

I don't think that the Bible supports that. I would say that entropy/death did not start right away. The book of Genesis was God telling Moses what to write for the new formed nation of Israel. It was not the whole picture, and for humans to narrow their view of the beginning to what is just in the first 3 chapters would deny future wisdom and guidance on the matter.

As science revealed the unknown world to us, biblical scholars started to place gaps to fit the Bible into a scientific time frame. Even in the 1860's you have Young doing a literal translation that changed the story in a totally different way altogether.

Saying that humans did not die, is the same thought process that satan held. It was not an immediate death, but humans did loose immortality. Meaning that now they were condemned to death. They would not live forever as they were created to do. That there was a tree that allowed that is proof. Continuing to eat from that tree in a fallen condition would afford eternal life. Knowing good and evil is just having knowledge of a depraved nature. If there was no depraved nature then there would not be any difference between good and evil. We have no concept of that. We may have instances of innocents where a human is incapable of doing harm to others, but to live a life where everything we desired, would be free of harming others is an alien concept. Peace and safety normally comes from giving up our desires and submitting to each other's will.

It clearly says that God created humans and that these humans could only fill the term Sons of God. This is consistent with the twelve tribes, and the twelve apostles. Now if we talk ourselves out of a world wide flood, then we have to explain who these sons of God were and what happened to them. Some have called them angels, but then the NT would be wrong, because they wrote that the angels cannot have sexual relationships with each other, much less with humans. There may be some extra-biblical accounts of half human half demon offspring. Humans have certainly imagined such existences throughout history. We do have it written in Genesis that these sons of God had children with the daughters who were from the family of Adam. So when Cain fled the area where Adam and his offspring were settling, he was marked so that his life was not taken at the hands of those not cursed like Adam. If people really want to cut up the Bible and make claims, the Line of Cain could be thrown out entirely. The naming of his offspring is so close to that of Seth's they could be the same family.

I would say that humans existed for some time, before the curse. But time as in death and entropy/decay did not start until the fall. It seems to me that even Cain and Able were born before the curse. Cain was driven from his home area, just like Adam was driven from the Garden. He was not given the death penalty, and was marked so other humans would not kill him. Within a time span of 230 years from the curse God placed upon Adam, about two generations removed, God seemed to be out of the picture. Enoch and Noah seemed to be the only ones who had a personal relationship with God.

It seems that Adam named Eve after the curse on humankind, and did say that she had been the mother of all living. That does not mean she was; it could just mean that he thought she was or was giving her more credit than she deserved. The Bible also says that he created males and females plural even before placing Adam in the garden alone. Seeing as how God said that he created everything and Eve was the last to be "formed", she can scarcely be titled the mother of all that came before her. If Adam was trying to gain her good side, after her big blunder, he may have had a point. God did point out though that she was the mother of Cain, Able and Seth, but that is all the credit she got. We may assume that she was the mother of all of Adam's sons and daughters, but she may not have lasted the next 800 years seeing as how painful child bearing had become.
 
It always amuses me when non-Christians think they have some sort of authority to judge someone else's relationship with God and his Son.
Yes, I'm sure you're equally amused by non-Muslims like yourself judging someone else's relationship with Muhammad & Allah. You, as a non-Muslim, never judge Muslims, right? That'd be amusing, if you did. Or Wiccans - you never judge them, I assume. Or any other belief. We can put you down in the 'never judge' category? That'd be amusing, if you did. Like ever.
 
Death is result of sin.

Death is a result of entropy.

Deja vu.

Death is result of sin. God warned that death will occur had they disobeyed God. (Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.) Ever since that moment we are under the penalty of death, all we are waiting for is for the timing to be completed. Currently we are death row waiting for the execution of God's judgement on us. Ezekiel 18:4a "The soul that sinneth, it shall die". So us dying is a direct of God's judgement on us.

It might have been a decent warning fwiw, even if "God" provided it in the process of presenting a dichotomy. Death could be a direct result of eating the "fruit" as opposed to a punishment meted out by some sort of disciplinarian.
 
Moses doesn't come along until the book of Exodus. Genesis ends with Joseph's death.

We will have to chalk this one up as: If Moses existed, then God gave him the whole Torah as the first five books of the Bible. If modern scholars can convince enough people that both never existed, then they have every right to do so. I have no reason to go along with modern scholars.
 
Yes, I'm sure you're equally amused by non-Muslims like yourself judging someone else's relationship with Muhammad & Allah. You, as a non-Muslim, never judge Muslims, right? That'd be amusing, if you did. Or Wiccans - you never judge them, I assume. Or any other belief. We can put you down in the 'never judge' category? That'd be amusing, if you did. Like ever.

This could be a generic biting comment, but honestly, Mr. Agentman is pretty true to his principles on this front, all told.
 
I'm not trying to avoid consideration; the same way I would hope you wouldn't just throw out an accusation like this in order to avoid cosidering my viewpoint.
Well, I wasn't really talking to you so its not the accusation, but not being part of whatever conversation you are in that makes me not avoid, but be unaware of your viewpoint :)

God and his Son.
He has a wife you know .... :mischief:

Props if you get the reference.

Anyway, it irritates me when Christians think they have some sort of authority to judge someone else's relationship. So you are way beter off being amused ;)
 
Entropy exists throughout the Universe, not just our tiny bit of it.
That is because man's sin caused the whole of creation to be under bondage. Romans 8:19-22 clearly state that the whole of creation is under bondage and is waiting for redemption that is to come.
But they didn't die, the serpent said their eyes would be open knowing good and evil and thats what happened - read God's report to his buddies. Thats when God decided to block their way to the tree of life and kicked them out of the Garden.

God's pronunciation of death was that they now had the penalty of death waiting to be executed on them. Whenever someone is punished to death by the courts, they don't die right then and then, but that means from that time onwards their ultimate fate would be death. That is the same for Adam and Eve and everyone who descended from them that we are just waiting for the time when God finally executes the final order. Adam and Eve did eventually die just as God had said would happen.

God kicked them out of the garden so that their was a chance for them to be redeemed. Without us dying we would be living forever in our sinful bodies and thus we would be suffering forever. Death is a way out of our suffering since it means these bodies will eventually be gotten rid of.
 
I get what you're saying. As a non-Christian, I wouldn't really expect you to have a spiritual interest in Jesus. My hope would be (and theoretically the hope of all Christians should be) that I live my live in a way that causes you to think, "Ya' know, there's something different about that guy. I wonder what it is."

The only person who has ever made me think something like that was Jesus himself, or at least the stories about him.

Having said all that, I don't really get the initial "It will make non-Christians an excuse to ignore Jesus" comment, but it doesn't really matter.
 
Well, if a Christian can get you to dislike Christianity through his behaviour (I can think of a couple here), then ostensibly a Christian can behave in a way that would cause you to respect Christianity (as a world-view) (I can think of a couple of those here, too).
 
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