LK140 - Trying emperor

[LKendter]

New Updates
Can we please keep Nibru on permanent military duty? This city has our HE and we need to keep up the military pump.

Why are we building wealth in Bad-Tibira during our GA? There are still valid buildings (aqueduct, coliseum and jail) to be built. Wealth during a GA really doesn't sit right we me.

I agree that emancipation is an auto-switch. My only request is a few final whips in our newer cities if possible.
I would like rep as that works well with the free GP from SoL.
Bur vs. FS is a tough call. I suspect we take a minor science hit, but we gain a lot of shields. The question is which is more important to us?

I don't see a clear path for our next GP.


Roster
Signed up:

LKendter
Swiss Pauli
Yena
Refar (currently playing, and already got it)
Jabah (on deck)

Remember 15 peace (including phony wars) / 10 heavy war turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to complete.

Win target: learning toward space.

Planned wars - None

 

[Swiss Pauli]

BUR will give more beakers than FS because of the 50% commerce boost in Uruk, as well as extra hammers. For me, the choice is clear.

 

[Refar]

Just to be sure, that we agreed on civics:

Represeantation - trading off some and the ability to rush-buy stuff for some - seems worth it
Buerocracy - Uruk has Oxford and going to have Wall Street... there is much more valuable than elsewhere... And we are not that heavy on cottages elsewhere anyway...
Emancipation
Free Market
Free Religion - the extra science should be worth the diplo hit.

FR is Asokas favourite. Hammurabi loves BUR (in it right now, but i assume will switch out later - the AI has the annoying tendence to ignore usefull favourite civcs in favor of the late game Free Whatever BS) and Lincoln Emancipation, so we will get some diplo+ from the new civics as well...

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I dont really see nothing that can be whipped before switching - most new cities are size 1

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No one commented on tech path so far... We are set on -> Medicine for Sushi. Don't have Corporation yet however... Do we hope for someone to tech it for trade ?

Rammy is on his way to Rifling...
Pretech 1-2 turns then trade for Replaceable Parts ?

My previous comment on Sankore- was btw. - free religion will kill those anyway...

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I will play in a couple (3~4) of hours

 

[Jabah]

I am not even sure that FR will be best for research, as we will lose all the Sankore bonus (which are more usually much than 10% research in all cities but Uruk).

USUF (for cottage hammers) could also wait until we mature more cottages (new ones from after Sushi). on the other hand, these hammers would be quite good for low production cities (the northern ones) right now.

Jabah

 

[LKendter]

Bureaucracy - Uruk has Oxford and going to have Wall Street... there is much more valuable than elsewhere... And we are not that heavy on cottages elsewhere anyway...

I am not sure we agreed or not on this one.

Free Religion - the extra science should be worth the diplo hit.
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My previous comment on Sankore- was btw. - free religion will kill those anyway...

I'm not sure where we agree on FR? I prefer to stay in OR.

 

[Refar]

I played one turn - seemed to make sense, as our next Great Person was ETA 1.

Turn 316: - We got a Great Engineer in Ur (from ~20% odds).
We already have one stockpiled (For Mining Inc i presume) SoL is almost complete, so no point using him there...
One Possibility would be rushing Wall Street - it usually does take a while... But i dont really like using GE on National Wonders - no competition to beat...

The last Turn of the GA is on, so the Civic choice has to be made now.

I am not sure we agreed or not on this one.
I'm not sure where we agree on FR? I prefer to stay in OR.

But it seem to be more controversy there, than i thought - to much to make it my call i think, so i interrupted to wait / discuss untill more clarity is achieved.
Perhaps at some point a team vote or just a command decision from our captain would be in order ?

Free Market seem agreed upon. Lets look at the rest of them... Some numbers:

FR vs OR:

I went through all cities we have ~400 raw @ 70% slider (from commerce only and without -multipliers). This is in GA howewer... still - even assuming we loose 25% with the GA gone (i think 10-15 is more realistic) - 10% from FR will beat the Sankore bonus. (Which is right now 16 from 8 Confucian cities. 8 more if we Confuse the remaining 4 cities and build temples... Monastery is alredy obsolete and we dont have lots of cathedrals - not in small cities anyway...)

Staying in OR for the 25% on buildings is another thing of course. But since we go into Space and Science is most important, my feeling is that FR would be beneficial...

Regarding BUR vs. Free Speach:

50% in Uruk are worth ~30 (here i already counted out the GA influence) which probaly can be improved a bit from better trade routes (Corporation -> 1 more route soon)... Also Uruk has the best Multipliers Oxford + planed Wall Street, so basicly there is worht more than anywhere else...

I counted empirewide 20 Cottaged tiles outside Uruk (+5 more in Uruk). And not much spare space to cottage... Assuming all of those are Towns, Free Speech will give us 40 outside Uruk... I think Uruks better Multipliers should be onought to offset it.

Overall it's close to breaking even in terms of Economy (i even believe to see slight advantage for BUR), so the +50% in Uruk would be the net win from BUR.

REP vs. Universal Suffrage: This is though one to give numbers, as we have to compare apples to oranges...

However - as pointed out above: 25 Cottages -> 25 not that much... The ability to rushbuy stuff is nice, but we need to tech fast so where to take the gold for it ? We can give our -weekish cities (none of which is cottaged btw.) some basic Hammers with Mining Inc.

REP: SoL = 8 Specialists = 24 raw for 'free'. Biology is in, and i expect Sushi by the end of my turnset - so we can hope for a couple of additional Scientists...

Diplo:
Asoka is Already FR, which is his Favourite.
Hammurabi and Lincoln are the only Confused left...
Hammy is not direct neighbour, and in BUR right now - we can get some + there, if we go that way.
Lincoln fav is Emancipation - and he will probably stay there once he has the tech.
Rameses fav is OR, so we loose a bit here. But the "Heathen Religion" will go away as well - he's Hindu...
Same with Sitting Bull who's buddhist (Favourte - Enviromentalism... No luck here...)
About Brennus we dont care - but he's buddhist, so FR will help there.

 

[yena]

Good analysis. I vote FR, BUR, REP, and Emancipation.

 

[Jabah]

good analysis.

My vote would be REP-BUR-Emanc-FMarket-OrgRel

Also don't forget the not-SoL specialist (GPP farm mainly) which will gain the REP bonus (probably another 6 x3). more point for REP then.

I am a builder, so I like OrgRel better, but can live with FR.

For the G Engineer, I won't rush Wall Street (Uruk could probably hand-build it very fast). Is there any expensive Wonders that would be worth rushing coming soon ? (3GD). Or if not already built, rush the National Epic in GPP farm (as it has almost NO production, and it should take a long while)

Jabah

 

[LKendter]

Turn 316: - We got a Great Engineer in Ur (from ~20% odds).

I would save him to ensure the Pentagon. Even if we don't build a ton of military from this point, that extra promotion is a big help. In addition, I don't want a warmonger civ to have it.

Regarding BUR vs. Free Speech :

I will marginally support BUR to settle the debate. Even your analysis shows a close battle, and maybe a slight economy hit for more hammers.

REP vs. Universal Suffrage : This is though one to give numbers, as we have to compare apples to oranges...
REP: SoL = 8 Specialists = 24 raw for 'free'. Biology is in, and I expect Sushi by the end of my turn set - so we can hope for a couple of additional Scientists...

Don't forget we already have specialist in our GP farm, and I think we have at least one or two maxed out cities with specialists.
I already liked this choice, and just want to reconfirm.

FR vs. OR :

At one point with playing the game I always went FR. Over time, FR has lost a lot of it luster for me. At this point I need to be convinced FR works best. Domination begs for theocracy, and culture begs for OR.
Even with space, I don't feel the choice is auto. Shields are often more of a problem then beakers for me, and you can't ignore diplomacy.

I marginally support FR after the detailed diplomatic analysis.
If the world was mostly one religion, I would veto FR. In this case, the preferred civics help enough to justify dumping our state religion.
Please dump our state religion during the GA

Monastery is already obsolete and we don't have lots of cathedrals - not in small cities anyway...)

Can you check the monasteries? I thought ones already built still got the shield bonus from the AP religion and any bonuses from wonders.

 

[Jabah]

2 comments on LK posts

1.GP
If we stay in BUR (which seems to be likely), I won't rush any wonders in Uruk that we have a good chance to hand-build which means (1) monopoly tech and (2) Uruk has nothing better to build.
Without looking at the game, I can't tell if Pentagon is will be one of the 'no competition' WW or not.

2. FR vs OR
I would understand going FR for research bonus, but not diplo reasons
To me the diplo points are not negectibles.
- Asoka is (or will be FR), so no '-' for religion (but no '+' for civics). But do we really care if Asoka is pleased or friendly (Asoka won't declare at pleased, I checked), he will be our competitor for UN/AP whatever, so we won't gain his vote anyway.
- Hammurabi/Lincoln will be happier with us with religion (until they go FR if ever)
- Sitting Bull won't be pleased even if we go to FR (need to check that)
- Ramses, either we have both '+' for civics and '-' for religion or none.

Jabah

 

[Swiss Pauli]

Good analysis. I vote FR, BUR, REP, and Emancipation.

What he said.

 

[Refar]

Can you check the monasteries? I thought ones already built still got the shield bonus from the AP religion and any bonuses from wonders.

Unfortunately i am sure - i can't check/provide screnshot right now, as i am working (Well, i should be... ), i did check before posting my last post however.

I think LK (and i am sure about me) commented on Diplo in the spirit of : "The hit from FR would be not too big, gecause of favourite civics..." not "FR is better for Diplo"

Will finish in a couple of hours after work... I hate Late Shifts...

 

[LKendter]

I think LK (and i am sure about me) commented on Diplo in the spirit of : "The hit from FR would be not too big, gecause of favourite civics..." not "FR is better for Diplo"

Well said, and that gets the point across better. Somethings adopting FR screws you big time with your neighbors, particulary if the world is aligned to one religion. There aren't a lot of confused civs..

 

[Refar]

Turns 315 - 330 / 1475AD to 1550AD

Turn 316: - Ur gives us a GE.
- Also we got Biology. Next targeted techs will be Corporation (for extra trade route and Corporation) and Medicine for Sushi. I put one turn in Replaceable parts first however, to be able to trade for it.
- Whip the Settler in Shurupak. Did not found nothing else whip-able...
- The Civic Switch.

Spoiler :

Turn 317: - Trade with Rameses for Rep.Parts. I was paning to do the trade wirh Lincoln, but some techwhore sold him Nationhood just now ...

Turn 318: - Settle the Uranium City right in time... Rameses was getting silly ideas...

Spoiler :

Turn 322: - Brennus comes asking for a deal, and we agree....

- Corporation is in. I set Medicine.
Concidered Comunism for the GS... But i think Asoka will be there first. He did not tech Commu, so we would have been there in time... Well allways know better afterwards...

Turn 324: - We got the Statue of Liberty. Not that many cities on the few continent. Nice anyway.

Spoiler :

- Also diplomatic news from Brennus... I don't think we care too much, still worht mentioning...

Turn 325: - Ironworks in Eridu. No pollution so far, as we dont have coal...

Turn 330: - Finished our 6-th bank (Ur) and Started up Wall Street in Uruk.

Notes:
- I think a Scientist for one of the Scientist Corps would be nice as next GP. We dont have too much land, so might end without Alunimium.
In any case - scientist corps are allways good to spread to AI - if they have the Ressource already, they got nothing, while we get .
- Hence the a bit odd configuration in Uruk - it's at high (~75%) odds to pop a GS, so i hired two scientists there - GP in 10 Turns.
Had to remove two priests in Ur, to slow it down a bit, as otherwise it would come first. Ur is at very mixed odds. I think we can re0hire more speicialists in Ur, as soon as Uruk popped its (hopefully) Scientist.
- Techwise... Medicine in 2 turns.
I think Steam Power should be next. Some AI Already have it, so maybe trade ? Levees, Coal, -> Railroad...

The Save
http://forums.civfanatics.com/uploads/57778/LK140_AD-1550.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[LKendter]

Turn 316: - Ur gives us a GE.

IIRC that makes two of them on standby.

Brennus comes asking for a deal, and we agree....

I wish we didn't make the deal. How much of a trading with our worst enemy penalty did we get hit with?

 

[Jabah]

I have it, but won't play until tomorrow.

Jabah

 

[Refar]

I wish we didn't make the deal. How much of a trading with our worst enemy penalty did we get hit with?

None...

To be honest, i completely forgot about "You traded with our worst enemy" stuff, when accepting, so basicly i was the Jerk...

Still, i just checked the save, and the only one we have any "Traded With Worst Enemy" Points is Brennus him self... Tho he is obviously hated by just about everyone, we got no demerits from that deal... Could it be, it's because he was Sittig Bull's Vassal at that point

 

[pigswill]

Lurking

I think that if you sell a tech for cash it doesn't count as trading. If anything else is included in the deal (a tech, a map, a favour) then it does count as trading.

 

[LKendter]

New Updates
The economy looks nice, and we still have Wall Street coming up.
The only issue I see is I would like to strengthen our military for our islands. The oil and uranium island deserves more then 1 token defender per city.
Rifles and rails (Mining Inc) look like our next concerns.


Roster
Signed up:

LKendter (on deck)
Swiss Pauli
Yena
Refar
Jabah (currently playing, and already got it)

Remember 15 peace (including phony wars) / 10 heavy war turns per round. STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 hours to complete.

Win target: learning toward space.

Planned wars - None

 

[Swiss Pauli]

I really think we should beeline Electricity and Radio to deny Hammy (and Asoka) Broadway and RocknRoll; they also give us trade fodder for extra Mining Inc resources. Cristo would also be cool.