LK25 - Emperor, Babylon

[Rowain deWolf]

Hit 'PrintScreen' then switch to Windows via 'Alt + Tab' start Paint or similar programm and paste('Ctrl + V') it in. Safe it as bmp if you want to edit it but be sure to save it as a jpg when you want to post it.

HTH

Rowain


EDIT: 'alt + Tab' only works when you have another application (example: Explorer) running. But the windows-key should do the trick too.

 

[Jersey Joe]

These years are spent concentrating on improving our land and cities. Nothing much noteworthy happens.

350bc preturn some unhappiness around so go to 10% luxuries. Change a few build orders.
(I) our galley sinks 2 barbarian galleys and becomes a vet.

330bc workers work etc., nothing in diplo
(I) 2 barbarian horsies die on our walls.

310bc workers work etc., Rome, Egypt & Iroquois have Feudalism.

290bc workers work etc., nothing in diplo. Destroy barb camp +25 gold
(I) Rome wants use to join an alliance against Japan. Rome will not give us enough to make it worth our while.
Rome & Egypt start on Sun Zu's

270bc Trade Monotheism to Japan for Monarcy + WM +24 gold
(I) French complete great wall.

250bc workers work etc., nothing in diplo
(I) Egypt builds Great Library.

230bc workers work etc., nothing in diplo
(I) Rome & Japan make peace.
Rome starts on Sun Zu's again. Iroquios start Sun Zu's

210bc workers work etc., nothing in diplo. Destroy barb camp +25 gold

190bc workers work etc., nothing in diplo

170bc workers work etc., nothing in diplo. Destroy barb camp +25 gold

150bc workers work etc., nothing in diplo.
Destroy barb camp +25 gold, there is a cow where the barb camp was so Surf&Turf founded next to it.

I forgot to record the dates that the other 2 cities I built were founded. It was around 210bc

With a little more work Iron City should be able to produce 20+ shields per turn. I thought about going after Sun Tzu's so I did not build any barracks.

Here it is: LK25 Babylon

 

[LKendter]

I got it.
Expect a reply very late tonight, or Saturday morning.

 

[LKendter]

(0) 150 BC - Switch Ashur to Barracks.
It sucks that have wasted shields on a reg spearman.
I rush the Barracks in Ashur so that we get start building vet troops.

Why is the galley is Kish, when we have a known land mass by on the other side?
I switch Zariqum to Galley and rush it.

(I) Egypt comes calling with an offer I can't refuse.
An alliance vs. Japan for Feudalism, wm, $33.
Since Japan has just 2 cities left, I will risk it.
Plus we can use a civ that really likes us.
The Palace expands.


(2) 110 BC - I catch another Civs border!
With the Galley built in Zariqum.


(3) 90 BC -
(I)France complete the Colossus.


(4) 70 BC - Japan is down to just 1 city now.


(5) 50 BC - We frag a barb camp, +25, an Iroqoius archer was on the other side!


(6) 30 BC - First contact with France AND American.
Literature to America for their wm, $20.
Literature to France for ~$25 (all their cash).
New wm to Egypt for worker, $7.
Monarchy for America for ~$235 (all their cash).


(7) 10 BC - Establish embassies with America / France.
Washington is size 7, just suffered civil disorder.
It produces a lousy 8 shields.
Paris is a bigger joke - size 4.
Rome has connected their harbor city - I rush our harbor to open up trading possiblities.
(I) America / France start the hanging gardens.


(9) 30 AD - The Romans found Syracuse behind our lines.
(I) Japan / Egypt peace treaty
Lyons completes the lighthouse.


My next proposed cities

Red X - includes the game square, so the city will have one great square to start.

Blue X - Incense, enough said?

Summary - Since our map is known, I was selling maps every turn.

THE NEXT PLAYER decides.
France will give $3/t, $11 for Ivory.
I thought it was a bit light, and held off for the moment.

Japan will sign a peace treaty - but we can get NOTHING from him.
Keep an eye out for when we can make something from the deal.

Communications have NOT been sold.
I want to keep the tech pace slowed down.
Plus maybe we can broker to the continent

We are still weak in military vs. Rome.
The rest are at least even.

10 turns each.
24 hours for got it.
48 hours total time to complete turn


LKendter
Gotag (currently playing)
Sullla (on deck)
meldor
Jersey Joe
Jbob42

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads/LK25-50AD.zip

 

[Sullla]

Look at that minimap - wow, we are BIG! Barring something really wacky happening, this game is indeed already in the bag. I'm confident we will be able to win by any method we so choose, as long as we continue to have solid play from everyone. We need to start our Forbidden Palace soon to get good use out of it; perhaps we should start discussing where it should be placed? I would vote for somewhere near the Roman border, because we KNOW that sooner or later Caesar will start a war with us and we can have that land as well.

 

[LKendter]

Uh - really big?
Gotag gets to drop 2 more cities during his round

I think we will get the northern jungle area.

If we play it right, we may get one or two cities on the eastern island.

 

[Gotag]

Gonna take some time with this turn. Trying to find the direction of play and maybe some suggestions on where we can go from here.

Correct me if I am wrong but if we sell our world map does that not lead the AI civs to each other? (Faster then they would otherwise?) I remember reading another SG thread where either Sirian, Charis, (Arathorn?) said they were not trading world maps to prevent Russia from being discovered by the rest of the world. I have never tested this out to be sure.

Reason I am asking is because that would effect how long I would hold off on selling contact. I quite take the point on trying to keep the tech race slow as that hugely works in our favor.

Gotag

 

[LKendter]

Direction of play as I see it
1- No matter what, keep pumping out military. Sooner or later we will end up in a war.


2 - Connect the horses, knights will help a lot.


3 - Settle the remaining easy spots - northern jungle, and if we can that small island. We actually have a decent chance at a domination win here. Any square we can claim helps toward that type of win.


4 - Hmmm..., I didn't think about maps increasing the chance of contact. Sullla is better on emperor - maybe he can give us a clue on that.


5 - A few more market places would help with cash flow. Since we are buying tech, anything that increases cash flow...


I am not sure where, but I agree with Sullla - we need to start thinking about a fp location.

 

[Sullla]

As far as I know, the AI civs have complete knowledge of everything within the region on their maps. That is, no such thing as the fog of war exists for them. But they do not "know" what is out in the blackness; for that they have to scout out or trade for maps. This is part of the reason why the AI civs are programmed to keep exploring until all of the map is known. I have seen scouts go right up to the border of another civ and turn around and head back without making contact; obviously they wouldn't do that if they "knew" there was another civ out there. So denying the AI civs a map is not always a bad idea. However, since the AI civs will just scout out the whole map anyway, and since you have to click off the world map on every single trade deal forever if you do this, I don't think it's worth the hassel. Your world map is worth something on Emperor/Deity, and if you're behind in tech you can get a lot out of it. In most cases, it's not advantageous to withhold a world map from other civs.

 

[Gotag]

Preturn

Veto Settler in Babylon, changed to granery
Rush courthouse in Cheap Fur
Ur changed to Marketplace
Iron City tweaked to produce pikeman in 2 turns with 3gpt extra, it will be further tweaked in 2 turns to produce a pikeman in 2 turns (15 shields after corruption) but will grow to size twelve 2 turns slower.
Samerra changed from courthouse to worker, this will save 2 turns on the horses.
Rushed temple in Eridu
Rushed temple in Lagash
Rushed temple in Nippur
Shuruppak changed to worker
Sippar changed to worker
I trade monotheism to the french for 2 lux 3gpt and 11g
I trade monotheism to the americans for 10gpt and 33g WM
I trade ivory 5gpt and 10g to Rome for wine
The end result of these trades and tweaks is that we can set our lux slider to 0% with an income of 85gpt

70AD

Lagash courthouse worker ordered
Cheap Fur courthouse worker ordered
Eridu Temple worker ordered
Samarra worker, Walls ordered (this will be our southern "rock" against the Romans
Nippur Temple, granery ordered
Shuruppak worker courthouse ordered
Rush courthouse in Ellipi
Make peace with Japan for nothing, they are too far away to make this worthwhile even as a training war with GL fishing, also they are unlikely to ever have more then a couple of gold to rub together anyway.
Trade WM around, I can see a city outline from the french WM. I guess they will get there first.

90AD

Ironcity Pikeman, tweaked to make pike in two, another pike ordered
Ellipi Courthouse, Barracks ordered
Zariqum Temple, granary ordered, like it or not this is now a first tier city and we need to pump growth
Sippar worker, temple ordered
Izibia founded, worker ordered
Smells Good founded, temple ordered
As anticipated, french have contact with the aztecs but want a lot for it, since our boat will get there in 5 turns I decide to forgo the pleasure. Instead I trade her ivory for her world map+17g (I figure she traded WM with the aztecs, I need to be able to anticipate when everyone will meet everyone and try to get the trades in beforehand. My guess proves correct and the aztecs are BIG. They have 17 cities and are on a larger continent then the french/americans combined. They don't seem to be very advanced though as France got no new techs.
I trade our WM to the Egyptians for WM+60g
I trade our WM+furs+138g to Rome for Theology
I trade our WM to the Iros for 3gpt
I trade our WM to the Americans for 15g

110AD

Cheap Fur worker, Barracks ordered
Weed in Surf and turf, missed disorder, scientist ordered
Traded WM around, still looking good regarding no one finding each other

Inbetween turns the french show up on the little island to the south

130AD

Uruk Pike, Pike ordered
Lagash worker Granary ordered
Iron City Pike, Pike ordered
Rush Granery in Babylon
Rush Workers in Surf&Turf and Eridu
Rush Temple in Kish
Traded WM around, getting about 20g in total from everyone

150AD

Babylon granary, Marketplace ordered
Eridu builds worker, courthouse ordered
Kish builds temple, Worker ordered
Surf and turf builds Worker, galley ordered
Horses connected, All pikes changed to horsemen, will start rushing barracks
Rushed Barracks in Cheap Fur
Trade around WM and Ivory to the Iros for 4gpt and 4g

170AD

Cheap Fur build Barracks, Horseman ordered
Iron City builds Horseman, Horseman ordered
This turn I have 2 suicide galleys ready to attempt contact with the aztecs, we are at 92gpt btw

Midturn Lugdunum flips to us, needless to say I accept, comes with a harbour, temple ordered
Better and better, Rome is now without Iron AND horses.

190AD
Nothing built oddly enough this turn
Rush Marketplace in Ur

The galleys are launched into the unknown lets hope for the best

210AD

Ur builds Marketplace, Horseman ordered
Dyes brought online
Contact with the Aztecs!!, both galleys survived surprisingly enough. They are big and dumb. They don't even have literature yet and are still in the dark ages. Embassy established. They are at 60% tax, 40% research. Their capital has two entertainers. They are hurting and cannot offer me anything atm but their WM. I trade WM with them.
The french land on the jungle to the north of us I switch Akkad to a settler due in 1
Traded WM around. The egyptians have education (and they have the GL lol) but want the world for it

230AD

Akkad build settler, worker ordered
The Romans now have engineering and education as do the egyptians. Since I am near the end of my turn I will leave that trading to my successor. Still no contact between the two sides but it is going to be soon. We may want to get what we can before that happens. As insurance I sell theology to the french for WM+24gpt+70g getting them current to us, I don't sell it to the Americans as they can offer nothing more then 1g
Rush barracks in Ellipi.
Ur goes WLTK
Rush worker in izibia which would go into revolt
We are now up to 131gpt

250AD

Ashur builds horseman, Horseman ordered
Iron City horseman, horseman ordered
Ellipi barracks, horseman ordered
Izibia builds worker, temple ordered
Couldn't snag a single worker during my tenure which is annoying. However I thankfully leave poor Sullla with the task of sweating out the contact trades. The Iro's have a number of units north of us and may be feeling frisky.
During my entire term the Japanese never had a gp to offer for my WM. They are truly humble.
We are actually behind the aztecs in score. I don't know how this game scores but that is cracked. Ah well it makes us more liked I guess.
We now have a strong military to everyone but the egyptians, romans and Iro's (who we are equal to) and the aztecs who we are weak compared to.
Treasury is 356g with 129gpt. I still have no idea for a FP. Without a leader it is a hard call. One strat we can try is to build it in Ur and transfer the Palace to Shuruppak.

 

[Sullla]

OK, I'm up and will play tomorrow morning. It's a little late at the moment, and I'm going to fall into bed as soon as the Red Wings and Hurricanes finish their game. Can you say triple overtime?

 

[Gotag]

If all the players can keep an eye on the Aztecs I would appreciate it.

They have got themselves in quite a hole. When I established the embassy they had 8 units in their capital. If the rest of their cities are like this then they are probably having big support problems. (They are a republic btw)

What I am wondering is how they are going to catch up tech wise when they do get contact with all the others. They never had a farthing to trade with us so they don't even have 1gpt in excess.

I suspect they will try to bluster and extort their way up. I figure they will war with the U.S. first.

Gotag

 

[Sullla]

(0-4) 250-290AD OK, I had my first 4 turns wiped out when my computer froze. Now I save every turn to make sure the game isn't lost, but what was lost was my write-up for those turns. I can't go into the same level of detail, but I brokered contact for a nice sum of money and got Educattion and Engineering for free. I picked out a Forbidden Palce site and rushed a courthouse there, and am now building it there. Once its tiles get finished, it should only take some 30 turns to build it. I founded a couple of cities, and changed some city production and workers around. Got all that?

(5) 300AD I moved some stuff around, but relatively little happened. I'm blockading a Roman settler/spear pair that is walking through our territory; we can probably get a declaration of war from Caesar whenever we want by demanding that they leave. Not a bad thing to have.

(6) 310AD Lots of worker movement. We take out a barb camp and get 25g. Larsa gets a temple rushed so that we can prevent AI settler from putting another city in our jungle region. I continue to manage cities. Pretty standard stuff here. Still no new techs (good!)

(7) 320AD Another new city, Nimrud, founded in the north. Since there are other settlers from other civs in the area, I'm going to rush the temples of the cities in that area. I merged two now-unneeded Iroquois workers into our FP city of Shruppak to speed up its completion time; it drops from 61 turns to 37 turns. That will drop too as I have workers mine the bonus grasslands there. Elsewhere, nothing exciting happens. No new techs.

(8) 330AD Nothing of significance happened this turn. I note when checking for new techs that Caesar will pay a ton of money for iron but I, not being a ******, fail to sell it to him. We should probably think about an attack soon, since he has no pikes for defense or swords (or horses, or knights) for attack.

(9) 340AD Another unremarkable turn. You can tell when a new barb camp pops up because every AI unit within 100 miles beelines for it. Wow - it's a sight to behold. The Roman spear/settler are now being blockaded every turn, and this should be continued. Cleo has Astronomy, but wants 1000g plus 30/turn for it. We'll pass on that one.

(10) 350AD We lose our furs and gems from the French. To prevent wholesale rioting, I trade for the gems back in exchange for our furs and 260g. France also has both Astronomy and Invention; where did THAT come from? Time for some trading. We can get both Invention and Astronomy if we choose, but waiting a few turns will bring down the price some so I wait. And if Egypt will build a freakin' harbor, we can trade them our ivory and furs. Come on Cleo... And elsewhere, talk about butchery. The AI civs combined to send 8 archers, 2 war chariots, and a mounted warrior against one barbarian encampment - but OUR swordsman sacks it. The most important thing for the next player to monitor is the FP city to make sure it comes out faster.

Have fun with it, the game is easy at this point. We should attack Rome soon, hopefully knights will be invented soon as well, and we can trigger a Golden Age with our bowmen. From there, it will be easy sailing (not that it isn't already). Good luck!

The Game: LK25 350AD

PS: We will move into first place on the histograph next turn.

 

[Sullla]

Our map:

 

[Gotag]

In ten turns the Aztecs caught up to the rest of the world. They had to average close to a tech a turn to do it. How the hell did they accomplish that with no dough or trade goods? Threats only?

There are times I feel like I am playing not 7 (or whatever number of AI civs) but rather one opponent. They may have different coloured units but in the essentials they seem to cooperate to an incredible degree. I would find this game very frustrating except for the fact that they at least war with each other.

Are the rules and conditions that the AI will trade among themselves that much different then with the human player? Also why do they trade with the Aztecs but not with the Japanese? Is it because the AI won't trade with a weak civ because the human could then extort the techs?

Gotag

 

[LKendter]

@Sullla
merged two now-unneeded Iroquois workers into our FP city of Shruppak

1 - Why burn free workers, not workers that cost money - our homebrewed ones.

2 - How can you see we DON'T need workers???? We still have a ton of jungle to clear.

3 - How did you pick this location? It seems TO close to the capital to be that valueable.

4 - If the Iroqoius start war, out FP city could get stuck with war rioters.


Gems back in exchange for our furs and 260g. Why did you pay straight cash? I always do resources / luxuries on a per turn basis. If the AI declares war, then we are screwed on the remainging money.



I am curious, why granary in Nippur - this city is almost hopelessly corrupted - It needs a courthouse to get useful.


LKendter
Gotag
Sullla
meldor (currently playing)
Jersey Joe (on deck)
Jbob42 (ON HOLD)

@meldor - good luck, that Iroqoius stack next to our city makes me nervous.

 

[Sullla]

Workers that we buy or capture from other civs only work at half the given rate. I know that they are free, but I tend to prefer ones that will build things faster, even if they do cost 1g/turn. As per your second comment, of course we still NEED workers; you always need workers. But clearing out jungle is a long-term priority, and it won't give us any benefits for a long time. Building a Forbidden Palace is a top priority, and this move cut our time to build it in HALF. I know you think the site is too close. I kind of expected you to say something like that . But keep in mind that you normally play on large maps LKendter; remember what it was like in RBD23 on that small map? Here's why I picked that city location:

1) It's far enough away from Babylon to make all of Roman territory productive.

2) It's close enough to be able to build the Forbidden Palace in a reasonable amount of time. With a courthouse, this city has about 60% corruption. Go out a bit further, and you're not going to be able to build a FP without a leader in any reasonable time.

3) Shruppak wasn't my top choice, but where else to put it? Ellipi is too far south, Uruk is too far north to make stuff in the south productive (and kind of far from most of Rome), and Lugdunum is a former Roman city and thus not "safe" enough for my liking. Shruppak has no fewer than 4 bonus grassland tiles though, and several hills for future shields; it's not a bad choice.

4) Not far enough away? While I think you might be approaching this from a "large map" view here, let me explain my thought. We can't put the FP anywhere further away from Babylon at the moment. If we wanted it further away, we'd have to wait until we had taken some land from Rome or another civ. That's not going to happen anytime soon, at least not for another 50 turns or so. Now if you give me the choice between a perfect FP site, or a site nearby 50 turns earlier, I'll pick the less optimal one every time. The important thing is that we get our FP build in a GOOD location (not a PERFECT one) as soon as possible.

No one was stepping forward and starting a build or suggesting a site, so I decided I would do so. It's not a bad location, and if you look at the map, it WILL give us an enormous stretch of uncorrupted land from the northwest jungles to the current territory occupied by Rome. With that site, we'll OWN this game. Remember, the value of an early FP cannot be understated; I've seen quite a few cases where an early build of one led to a broken game in the player's favor. Please trust me on this one; it's a good spot and I did think about it first.

Now I was operating on the principle that speed in building the FP was of the highest importance. Otherwise I wouldn't have merged those workers into the city. It gives up a lot, but shaving 20 turns off the completion time gains us a lot as well. Watch and see how our income and productivity skyrockets when that thing completes and then see if you still are angry at me.

Rioters could be a problem. However, it has been my experience that these foreign nationals are assimilated within a few dozen turns and no longer cause a problem. I guess I probably should have used our workers for merging; I normally don't LIKE captured workers, but I guess others do.

I paid straight cash for the luxury because you pay LESS in straight cash then you do in gpt. It's not a comparison between 260g and 13g/turn, it's the difference between 260g and 15/turn. The AI doesn't trust us either, and that's reflected in gpt deals. Always pay in lump sums if you can afford it. It's my experience that gpt deals do NOTHING to prevent or cause AI attacks anyway, and I hardly think France is about to start one here. Check the RBD12 thread if you don't believe me on this; Zed has also independently found the same thing in his games.

Granary in Nippur? That's not from my turn, that's from the previous one. And yeah, it should be a courthouse.

Gotag: the Aztecs caught up on techs the same way that we are staying caught up on techs: they bought into them. The Aztecs were behind because they had had to research every tech themselves at 1st civ cost. Now that they have contact with the rest of the world, they were researching/buying at 8th civ cost, and thus caught up in a hurry. This seems bad, but it's the same principle at work that allows us to but into techs instead of researching them ourselves. It can be frustrating, but keep in mind it works both ways. And at times the AI civs certainly do seem to be playing as a team; that's because of the "AI to AI trading ratio", which is set at 150% for Emperor. Something that we have to pay 100g for to an AI civ will be bought by another AI civ for only 50g. Hey, it's not fair, but if you want fairness stick to Regent.

It seems that there was some misunderstanding about my turns. Part of this is due to the fact that a lot of my reasoning for decisions was wiped out when my summaries for the first 4 turns disappeared in my computer crash. I left out too much, and there was confusion as a result. For that I apologize. I hope that I've cleared up my position here.

And please give me a little more credit... I won my last 2 SP games on Emperor in considerably more difficult starting positions. This stuff's not coming out of my @ss; I do know what I'm doing here.

 

[LKendter]

@sullla - I am not questioning your abilities, but trying to understand your logic. There have been a lot of moves this game that I simply don't understand. The whole reason I didn't start the FP - I couldn't figure out anytown that I felpt itwas worth building it in.

Part of what is coming through to - I seem to get (?word) when I play games with people above my level. I am to use to being the highest ability player.

Of course, I know GOTM#8 which I am going to submit will suck.
I have NEVER been this screwed by the RnG. Fighting to from 1100 AD to 1500 AD gives me just 1 leader - FP is a marginal spot.
Elites die as fast as I can generate them.


Maybe you are right that I am to stuck in large map mode with the FP.


Of course, what blows my mine most - comments about how slow the tech rate is! It is already frustratingly to fast for me. The tech is appearing faster then we can take advantage of it.

 

[Sullla]

Hey, no offense taken LKendter. I never mind having to explain my opinions, and I didn't do a good enough job of that in my write-up. You have immensely more experience than me in number of games played, but a lot of them have been under similar conditions. I've played a lot fewer games but had to deal with all sorts of different map sizes, difficulty levels, good/bad starting positions, etc. That's part of the reason why we may disagree over some things.

I greatly value a GOOD FP spot over a PERFECT FP spot, if it causes the building to complete a lot faster. I think that this is a good example of such a case.

And as for GOTM8... I've only played up to 1600BC (one gaming session last night), but that is NOT an easy map. Thunderfall is out of his mind is stating that looked like an easy map. Rivers and luxuries don't negate the fact that the player starts in the middle of an enormous jungle. And barbarians raping everyone isn't going to make things better either. But let's not talk about GOTM8 here to avoid this being a spoilers thread; we can do that in the GOTM forum another time.

 

[LKendter]

Well, I better not talk about an GOOD FP spot then,
since that is all I got in GOTM#8.

Of course, my real problem there -
the RnG and leader drought.