LK80 - Science Experiment, Carthage, Deity

[Greebley]

Preturn: Check out the situation. We still are building infra so I will hold off on trying to get saltpeter.

Early: I decide to decrease the number of Ottomans in our captured city by building workers. With 7 our city will flip and we will only get it back through a war we don't want.
61 gpt will not get us Saltpeter. Ugh! The only one near us is owned by Babylon.

Mid: Build Cadez which is a bit tight, but grabs a good number of Iroquois territory while still having 0 overlap with any Iroquois city (will have no chance to flip after it gets culture).
Shaved off workers on towns that hit max. Merged in a few too, to slower growing town.

Late: We are now Industrial!.

Notes:
I built Infra in cities that was lacking it and units in the two or three that had most important builds. A few cities built a few knights before going for Banks.

There is actually a tech we can research that NO civ has. That is Medicine. However, going for it and missing getting it first (likely) means we get Steam later. I would go for Steam Power, I think. After that though we could try several things. TOE might be our best bet.

Our GA will end soon.

I don't know what we are going to do about the Iroquois. We have aprox 100 turns left until their culture win which will be at best guess around 1450 to 1500 AD. They are currently on track for the earliest AI culture win I have ever seen in any non-SID game.

 

[microbe]

I would have gone for Medicine. Even if we miss that, we could go for Sanitation.

Looks like we have chance for ToE? We need a prebuild.

 

[LKendter]

There is actually a tech we can research that NO civ has. That is Medicine.

I can't tell from your report if we have any turns invested toward a tech. Can you let me know before I play.

I don't know what we are going to do about the Iroquois. We have aprox 100 turns left until their culture win which will be at best guess around 1450 to 1500 AD.

Suicide mission will begin during my turns with an attempt to get the world in a dog pile against the Iroquois. If I fail this one is over.

I can't remember the last game where I saw a civ this dominant so early.

=======================




Signed up:
LKendter (currently playing)
Microbe (on deck)
Hotrod0823
Kaiser_Berger
Greebley

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.


Variant rules:
1) We must self-research at maximum positive cash flow.
We are still allowed to turn down research the last turn.

2) We may not research at negative if that will leave us less then $100 in cash.

3) We may not build the GL. We must raze the GL city. The raze rule expires when we own education.

4) We may shut of research temporarily with the ToE if NO mandatory techs can be completed before the ToE is done.

5) Minimum research is not allowed.

6) We may only buy techs from the AI if the cash we pay is 50% or less of the self-research cost. The remaining 50% can be from techs we own, luxuries, resources or peace treaty. This amount is the raw dollar amount. If research is a total of $80, then buying is a total of $40 max. To check the value of a tech is easy. If 12 beakers give writing in 23 turns, then the estimated cost is $276.

7) We can't trade away our only resource / luxury to get techs.

8) Research is prohibited on optional techs except the following specific techs: Literature, Republic, Military Tradition, Nationalism, and Sanitation.

9) When in doubt remember the goal - to test if self-research is really that bad at deity.

 

[Greebley]

Ya, I should have mentioned that. We have nothing toward any tech. You may choose freely.

Agree on the Iroquois. It will be hard given our long line of contact with them. You will want to move some units.

I am not 100% sure I went through and turned off possible auto-moves on units between cities. A bad oversight on my part. You might want to do that in the preturn just in case one is on auto-move. I don't think one is, but I don't want to mess up your planning either. Apologies for this. I am usually good about this double-checking.

We don't have Saltpeter yet. We may have to pay a pretty penny for it. I didn't want to do so and then have our GA end. Cavalry would really help though. Unfortunately, the Iroquois seemed much cheaper than the Russians.

 

[LKendter]

I am still not sure if Medicine is the best choice, as an Iroquois battle will be helped with rails. However, I have to gamble to catch up tech. A monopoly tech would really help.

The Iroquois are an unreal culture monster that gained 7000 culture points in just 10 turns.
Another game where I am forced into a fight I really don't feel ready for, and LK78 was a disaster of a war.
I am stuck with another 10 turns of a deal with the Iroquois.


800 AD
$42/turn gets us Saltpeter from Russia. That price is really going to hurt our research rate.
(IT) Russia starts Suffrage.


820 AD
The end of the GA forces the science rate down to 40%. I had to merge a worker to get positive cash flow at that rate.
(IT) The Iroquois declare war on Babylon!
The Ottomans start Suffrage.


840 AD
(IT) We are in deep you know what. The Iroquois already have INFANTRY.
Babylon gets hit demand of $1 and tm.


850 AD
(IT) I couldn't do anything because of the open deal with the Iroquois, and now Russia allies with them versus Babylon.

The Ottomans and Babylon ally vs. Russia. Normally I am happy to see a world war break out, but in this case we needed everyone vs. the Iroquois.


890 AD
(IT) China and the Iroquois ally vs. Babylon.


900 AD
It is do or die time. I declare war on the Iroquois.
I ally with the Ottomans for the very expensive price of Silks, Gems and $13/turn.
ARGGGGGG - We never build an embassy with China or Russia, so I can't ally with them against the Iroquois.

==========================

Summary:
This one really looks bad. The missing embassies killed us. I have determined the rules are too restrictive as we won't be able to build up enough cash for ages.

For now we should simply fight a defensive war as we try and build enough strength.


Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe (currently playing)
Hotrod0823 (on deck)
Kaiser_Berger
Greebley

Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

http://www.civfanatics.net/uploads8/LK80-900AD.zip


Variant rules:
1) We must self-research at maximum positive cash flow.
We are still allowed to turn down research the last turn.
We may not research at negative if that will leave us less then $100 in cash.

2) We may not build the GL. We must raze the GL city unless we own education.

3) We may shut of research temporarily with the ToE if NO mandatory techs can be completed before the ToE is done.

4) Minimum research is not allowed.

5) We may only buy techs from the AI if the cash we pay is 50% or less of the self-research cost. The remaining 50% can be from techs we own, luxuries, resources or peace treaty. This amount is the raw dollar amount. If research is a total of $80, then buying is a total of $40 max. To check the value of a tech is easy. If 12 beakers give writing in 23 turns, then the estimated cost is $276.

6) We can't trade away our only resource / luxury to get techs.

7) Research is prohibited on optional techs except the following specific techs: Literature, Republic, Military Tradition, Nationalism, and Sanitation.

8) When in doubt remember the goal - to test if self-research is really that bad at deity.


Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

 

[microbe]

Thanks for handing me a suicide game, again!

I can't play tonight unless I fix the bug..

 

[Greebley]

This is sounding pretty grim.

I take it we also don't have cash to upgrade our knights?


Microbe, what bug? Also you are up in Handy11, but haven't posted an I got it.

 

[LKendter]

I take it we also don't have cash to upgrade our knights?

I upgaded a few knights to cavalry. However, looking back that was a MAJOR mistake. I would have been much happier with embassies. We badly need Russia and China fighting the Iroquois NOW.

At this point we have to live with the rules, but I need to put an exception into them to allow for enough cash to build embassies / unit upgrades.

 

[Greebley]

Self research vs Tech Trading:

In one thread on self research vs buying techs I asked why buying was reguarded as "required" on higher levels. Some good player answered (may have been T-hawk) that it had to do with the ability to make gpt deals. Playing this game, I see better what they were talking about.

When you self research you choose a tech, but don't get it for several turns. gpt on the other hand gives you a tech instantly. If you see a tech trade opportunity, you can grab it right away guaranteeing you get it. With self research you have to guess what will be good in the future.

I am guessing that if you rep is ruined (and the renegotiate peace exploit is not allowed), or if you are so far behind that 2-fers are not possible, then self research is better.

However, if you fall behind so all AI's are getting techs before you can finish your own research and can therefore get no 2-fers and have to research each and every tech, then self-research is going to be rough and you will be in danger of falling behind.

On the other hand, if you can get techs first via research, then doing self research is the clear winner. You are then selling/trading techs that noone else has and thus getting full price for your trade.

 

[LKendter]

Another difference that I am trying to figure out is overall tech pace. I think feeding GPT to other civs speeds up the tech pace and helps to keep you in catch up mode. Despite the side tour for Printing Press and Literature before Republic we aren't as far behind as I have some deity games.

What really hurt us this game was the run away Iroquois.


I realize there was one thing I failed to look at during my turn.
Can we borrow cash for GPT from Babylon? This would let us build the embassies with China, Russia and upgrade more units to cavalry. The borrow will kill the science rate, but desperate times require desperate measures.

 

[Greebley]

Good thinking. If we can hurt the Iroquois badly then the science rate won't matter that much. We will also slow them down with the wars especially if we can ally. That way they cannot make trades and are researching at full on all techs.

Another problem is that we may have to switch to monarchy. With larger gpt deals we may have trouble raising Lux high enough. Not sure yet. We will reach 100% WW pretty fast I bet however (I really dislike the WW model - defensive wars get hit hard).

If we do have to switch we may have run negative gold in anarchy. I don't think we can avoid this though unless we can borrow a whole lot.

I think if a player feels we need to make peace, then we should stop the game and discuss first. If the Iroquois take out Babylon we lose (of course, getting ourselves wiped out won't work either).

 

[LKendter]

I think if a player feels we need to make peace, then we should stop the game and discuss first. If the Iroquois take out Babylon we lose (of course, getting ourselves wiped out won't work either).

I agree 100% on the peace comment. We are in one of the earliest do or die scenarios I have even seen in a deity game.
There must be multiple razed / captured Iroquois cities from there core. Even a 1 turn capture helps as it would destroy all of the culture buildings.

 

[hotrod0823]

The Iroquios look much like the Mongols in the 3-man variant I played with Charis a while back. In Conquests it appears that powerful civs can easily run away if not put into check. How we could've put the Iroquios in check is beyond me.

Edit because I forgot that the Iroquios traits were changed. Haven't played as them in ages.

Hotrod

 

[Kaiser_Berger]

They're no longer expansionest, rather Agricultural and Commercial. That combo hurts even worse than the original. Agricultural reigns supreme among the traits. It very often turns out that a runaway civ is Agricultural, and Commercial only helps.

 

[microbe]

preturn:
I sell Metallurgy to China for 121g and Music Theory. I then build embassy with Russia and it has 6 lux, building cossack. It doesn't have infantry. Only 4 riflemen in the capital. I then sign MA by 33gpt.

This slows down Medicine a bit in 19 turns.

IBT China declares on Russia - apparently Iros MA'ed with it. We lose lux from Babylon. China declares on Otto.

(1)910AD: We attack iro cav next to our border and China declares on us due to MPP. So we lose horses. We kill two cavs but lose one.

IBT Oea is bombardeded by 12 boats.

(2)920AD: Kill another cav.

(3)930AD: We lose one gems mountain.

(4)940AD: kill 4 cavs and lose one.

IBT we lose two pop and temple in Oea due to bombardment and it riots.

(5)950AD: We lost saltpeter from Russia. Move some units into Oea to protect improvements.

(6)960AD: WW is 16% so lux to 30. Otto and Bab get Medicine and we'll get it in 2 turns instead of 5.

(7)970AD:

(8)980AD: Medicine+55gpt to Russia for Steam. Self-research takes 165*17 beakers. Of courese we don't have coal.

Iro doesn't have medicine but has 3 coals.

I set to Sanitation due in 50 turns at 10%.

IBT Iro lands about 10 units in our core.

(9)990AD:

Finally:

WW rises too much. Lower sci to 0 and lux to 40. I would have revolted if not for the 116gpt we are paying. Babs have infantry too.

IBT lose several NMs on mountains. Our core is pillaged.

(10)1000AD: kill a couple cavs, but there are just too many infantry around.

We could make peace with China but it probably still has MPP with Iros.

Also we could raise sci to 10 with a surplus. I didn't do that yet. Sanitation would still be 48 turns away.

This isn't going well. The AIs aren't able to stop Iros. I really hope we are allowed to save money for anarchy. WW is killing us.

We may lose Leptis Magna or Hippo next turn. Musketmen in those two cities are already moved so do not shift them around anymore. I leave most other units unmoved, including the army.

 

[LKendter]

I sell Metallurgy to China for 121g and Music Theory. I then build embassy with Russia ...

I am curious, why didn't we also find a way to get China in vs. the Iroquois? We should have been able to borrow money from Babylon if needed for the embassy.

I would have revolted if not for the 116gpt we are paying.
I really hope we are allowed to save money for anarchy.

What does GPT payments have to do with revolting? There have been several revolts in the LK series where payments couldn't be made during anarchy.
I have no rule requiring enough cash to cover payments during anarchy.

Also we could raise sci to 10 with a surplus. I didn't do that yet. Sanitation would still be 48 turns away.

Per the variant rules this is MANDATORY. Hotrod0823, please correct this at the beginning of the turn.

This isn't going well. The AIs aren't able to stop Iros.

Lesson learned - A run away civ must be attacked the by the time it goes industrial - period.
It doesn't matter if we are ready. Once that civ gets infantry the AIs are useless, and the civ won't be stop. I should have learned this from Aggie's 5CC game with a runaway Sumeria.


Signed up:
LKendter
Microbe
Hotrod0823 (currently playing)
Kaiser_Berger (on deck)
Greebley

Please see the first post for the variant rules.
Remember 10 turns per round - STRICT 24 hours got it, total 48 to complete.

 

[Greebley]

Agree on the pre-industrial attack. I think we needed to go to war at latest when they declared war on the Persia.

I would revolt right away and keep the war going. It is really our only choice at this point. Keep as many countries as we can allied vs the Iroqouis and play an AW type game against them. It remains to be seen if we can slow them enough to stop them. If they mobilize, they will half their culture which will double our time to deal with them.

I think I would also switch research to Nationalism. Infantry don't require resources and we need the defense.

[Edit: We lose if we declare peace (we won't be able to ally civs vs the Iroqouis due to broken alliances). No way we can win then. I would prefer to die fighting than not so I advocate staying at war even if we are losing it.]

 

[microbe]

I am curious, why didn't we also find a way to get China in vs. the Iroquois? We should have been able to borrow money from Babylon if needed for the embassy.

I was not sure this is allowed. This is essentially lower science to save money.

Anyway it's a moot point as China had MPP with Iros and wouldn't agree to MA.

What does GPT payments have to do with revolting? There have been several revolts in the LK series where payments couldn't be made during anarchy.
I have no rule requiring enough cash to cover payments during anarchy.

Again, not clear to me. I remember there is a ban of "deficit research", and to me it's the same thing.

 

[hotrod0823]

I've got it and will work on it tonight.

Hotrod

 

[Greebley]

Hotrod, I think it much better if you play carefully than to try to get 10 turns done. I would feel free to play 5 (or any number) if your time is limited.

I am not sure if there is anything that we can do to win. I do want give it our best shot however.

Good Luck too. If we can survive the initial onslaught we have a chance I feel.