Lt. William Calley: "Sorry about My-Lai"

What is this Jungle speak? He was released on Moral, not legal grounds. Then what justice is there for the victims? A pat on the back and say "oh well he was going to die anyway so let's give him to his family. Shame about your relative though."

"Jungle speak" that is beyond you, evidently. And what are you on about now?

The Lockerbie guy was released on grounds of compassion for the remaining months of his life. On what grounds was this guy let off such that he only served 3 years of house arrest and was left with many years to enjoy his life? Can you really say that the two cases are the same?
 
The difference is that the massacre in Vietnam was obviously not the work of a sane man. Seriously, if you go out to war or even if you go training in the jungle, you see men who are driven mad by it, and so to put the two together with an inexperienced officer is a recipe for trouble
 
The difference is that the massacre in Vietnam was obviously not the work of a sane man. Seriously, if you go out to war or even if you go training in the jungle, you see men who are driven mad by it, and so to put the two together with an inexperienced officer is a recipe for trouble

Yeah, and you put an insane person under house arrest for 3 years for being an important party to killing 500 people and then let him roam free.

Totally makes sense.
 
He wasn't insane afterwards - most people get over it. The fact is, many people just aren't designed to kill people and live where they can be killed at any moment, but when those things disappear they can get back to pretty much normality
 
Until they flip out and kill someone or themselves.

Which has happened quite a bit I seem to remember.
 
The difference is that the massacre in Vietnam was obviously not the work of a sane man. Seriously, if you go out to war or even if you go training in the jungle, you see men who are driven mad by it, and so to put the two together with an inexperienced officer is a recipe for trouble

Sounds like pleading a special case to me. All war is hell and Vietnam was especially bad. I know because I have several friends who cracked up while serving there. But unlike Calley, they weren't rewarded with 3 years cushy house arrest, a hero's welcome and a job for life guaranteed by the Georgia state legislature in return for their actions as a mass murderer.
 
Most of the time, all that happens is they get a bit shaky and unable to focus, and then the sergeant takes them to one side and makes sure that they're OK, and then it's over. Vietnam was from what I've heard a very horrific war, but you get a few almost anywhere - Ireland and the Falklands have claimed a few suicides, basically because they couldn't live with what they'd seen and done.

Sounds like pleading a special case to me. All war is hell and Vietnam was especially bad. I know because I have several friends who cracked up while serving there. But unlike Calley, they weren't rewarded with 3 years cushy house arrest, a hero's welcome and a job for life guaranteed by the Georgia state legislature in return for their actions as a mass murderer.

It's hardly cushy - I think what they did with him was for the best. I don't know about American law, so I'll just say that I think anyone who goes mad should be made to stay at home, but not punished.
 
He didn't go mad. Neither did any of his superiors who specifically told him to commit war crimes.

It also wasn't an isolated incident:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/unacceptable-target.htm

>>> The following event--an atrocity in Vietnam that was ordered by military brass--doesn't appear to have been reported in any other venue. The source is Colonel James Robert "Cotton" Hildreth, who offered his war recollections in the obscure book Salute to Veterans 1996: Oral Histories From Veterans and Their Relatives, edited by Mary Lewis Deans (North Carolina: Flatrock Books. Below is the relevant portion of his remembrances, titled "An Unacceptable Target."


One particular mission is as vivid in my memory now as the day it happened. I was leading a flight of two A-1s on an armed reconnaissance mission, but shortly after take-off we were diverted to a target on the coast of I Corps (northern quarter of South Vietnam.) On arriving in the target area, we contacted the FAC (forward air controller) who pointed out the target. It was a huge village of three or four hundred houses, probably twelve to fifteen hundred people. It was between the main north-south highway and the ocean, a pretty, clean village. I asked the FAC why the village was a target.

The FAC said, "That is a Vietcong village."

I said, "How do you know its a Vietcong village?"

He said, "Well we saw three Vietcong run in there."

Across the road from the village was a rice paddy.

He said, "We saw them run out of the rice paddy when we flew over, and they ran into the village."

I said, "And you want us to wipe out this whole village to get three Vietcong?" How do you know they were Vietcong? Were they armed?"

He said, "They had on black pajamas."

All of the farmers working in the fields had on black pajamas. That was their dress. And they carried tools like rakes and hoes.

He said, "They were armed."

I said, "How do you know they weren't carrying rakes and hoes?"

He said, "Don't argue with me. I've got the provincial governor in the back seat, and he says that is a Vietcong village."

I said, "Well, I'll go down and look around and see if I can draw any fire."

So we went down and flew over real low and slow. There were children in the courtyard, smiling and waving at us. This village had obviously been there for years, and it had never been touched. I pulled back up; and I said, "Okay, what are your instructions?"

He said, "The wind is blowing off-shore; so put your napalm down on that first row of houses, and the wind will carry the fire across the entire village."

So I said, ""Fine."

I pulled around and told my wingman to come in from one side and I would attack from the other. We would start our attack from opposite corners. I was coming in toward the corner hut. I looked up at the other end, and he had moved over the road and dropped his napalm on the road. As I approached my release point, a woman with a tiny baby strapped on her back, holding the hand of a small child three or four years old, came running from the hut. I pulled my aircraft over and dropped the napalm in a ditch beside the highway.

The FAC screamed and raised holy hell because he had this governor in the aircraft with him. He said, "You know I'm going to report you for this!"

I said, "You don't have to. I'll be on the ground before you are, and I'll report myself."

When we landed, my wingman walked over to my aircraft and said, "Sir, I have three small grandchildren, and I could never have faced them again if I had followed those orders." He said he didn't want to fly any more combat missions. Later, I had him transferred to a unit with an airborne command and control mission.

I went into Squadron Operations and called the Command Center at Seventh air Force and talked to the director, a brigadier general I had served with several years before. I told him what happened.

He said, "Damn, Cotton, don't you know what's going on? That village didn't pay their taxes. That lieutenant colonel, a provincial commander, is teaching them a lesson."

On returning from an interdiction mission several days later, we flew over the target area. The village had been totally destroyed. Nothing but a large, black, burned area remained. I'm sure when the FAC got a fast-mover (high-performance jet) on the target and destroyed the village the report read: Target 100 percent destroyed, body-count 1200 KBA (killed by air) confirmed.

I'm a grandfather now, and I can't watch my grandchildren at play or carry them in my arms without thinking of that village in Vietnam.
 
Are you sure? I have never seen anybody, even the worst cases (and they get bad) admit that they have a problem with the situation - we're professionals and we're strong men, and don't go to peices at the sight of a little blood, a few dead bodies or a little bit of danger. As for his superiors, I won't comment.
 
He wasn't insane afterwards - most people get over it. The fact is, many people just aren't designed to kill people and live where they can be killed at any moment, but when those things disappear they can get back to pretty much normality

How about if someone switches on his insane mode, kills you and then switches back out? He'd get a few days of house arrest for that.
 
You don't switch it on. It's a reaction to stress, people just can't handle themselves. It's not a natural situation that they're in, and the poor sod can't have been in long, so it was probably his first taste of action. When they train the troops in Borneo, at least three in the platoon will have to go home because of the environment, and so if you combine that with a battle in the jungle there would be masses of them. I actually saw active service in Borneo, and jungle warfare is hell - hours upon hours of patrols with the constant buzz, the heat and the thirst and not knowing if the enemy have laid a trap or if they are hiding to ambush you, and then if they do hit trying to see your target through the trees and praying that what you point the thing at isn't on your side.
 
However, Calley wasnt ever given a heros welcome upon return unlike the guy in Libya.

I feel like I said this enough, but neither was the Libyan guy.
 
Are you sure? I have never seen anybody, even the worst cases (and they get bad) admit that they have a problem with the situation - we're professionals and we're strong men, and don't go to peices at the sight of a little blood, a few dead bodies or a little bit of danger. As for his superiors, I won't comment.
My Lai wasn't an isolated incident. They all weren't 'mad'. Read the article I posted above, probably after you responded.

Besides, if Calley had been psychologically incapacitated in any way, it would have come out during his trial as part of his defense. Nobody even suggested that might be the case. He was told to wipe out the village and that's what he did.
 
You don't switch it on. It's a reaction to stress, people just can't handle themselves. It's not a natural situation that they're in, and the poor sod can't have been in long, so it was probably his first taste of action. When they train the troops in Borneo, at least three in the platoon will have to go home because of the environment, and so if you combine that with a battle in the jungle there would be masses of them. I actually saw active service in Borneo, and jungle warfare is hell - hours upon hours of patrols with the constant buzz, the heat and the thirst and not knowing if the enemy have laid a trap or if they are hiding to ambush you, and then if they do hit trying to see your target through the trees and praying that what you point the thing at isn't on your side.

If you kill a lot of people when you're drunk, you can be sure that you will not get 3 years of house arrest.

If you kill 500 people because you are insane, you go to an institution at the minimum and probably spend the rest of your life there.

If you kill 500 non-combatants in war, you get 3 years of house arrest, after which you are a free man because you were stressed during combat.

One of these is f'ed up. Guess which.
 
It happened quite a bit. They all weren't 'mad'. Read the article I posted above, probably after you responded.

The way they happened is completely different. The one you posted about was an air attack, which is a calm and controlled method of operation, but My Lai was done on foot and was inhumanly brutal. Sane men, and especially soldiers, do not hurt civillians. That's the whole culture - that the military exist to protect people. That's why I'm convinced that the soldiers who attacked My Lai were not in normal working order

Besides, if Calley had been psychologically incapacitated in any way, it would have come out during his trial as part of his defense. Nobody even suggested that might be the case.

He probably didn't think he was. How many drunk people say they're sober? Besides, anyone who had not been in the same situation as him would not have understood.

If you kill a lot of people when you're drunk, you can be sure that you will not get 3 years of house arrest.

If you kill 500 people because you are insane, you go to an institution at the minimum and probably spend the rest of your life there.

If you kill 500 non-combatants in war, you get 3 years of house arrest, after which you are a free man because you were stressed during combat.

One of these is f'ed up. Guess which.

Seriously, combat is different. Nobody knows how they will react when they enlist, and it does things that nothing else does. Did you ever speak to a veteran from the trenches? What you can see fighting can be enough to make anyone go mad, but you go in with good intentions. The reason he didn't go to an institution is because afterwards he was mostly normal. He'll probably have the 'pit dreams' for a long time, but he's basically human
 
It's hardly cushy - I think what they did with him was for the best. I don't know about American law, so I'll just say that I think anyone who goes mad should be made to stay at home, but not punished.

So as long as you can plead temporary insanity you get a little hospital time and therapy and then back to civy street where you can forget all about it. No regard to the consequences or the victims at all. Maybe the Libyan should have tried that one. He'd have flown home years ago.
 
Sorry. You can't rationalize away the atrocities of war by claiming the perpetrators must be "mad". And if you really wanted to protect people, you certainly picked the wrong profession. You should have become a cop or a fireman instead of a warrior.
 
He probably didn't think he was. How many drunk people say they're sober?

So it's as if he was drunk? Excellent. Murders committed when drunk are not generally punished lightly.

Flying Pig said:
Besides, anyone who had not been in the same situation as him would not have understood.

Seriously, combat is different. Nobody knows how they will react when they enlist, and it does things that nothing else does. Did you ever speak to a veteran from the trenches? What you can see fighting can be enough to make anyone go mad, but you go in with good intentions. The reason he didn't go to an institution is because afterwards he was mostly normal. He'll probably have the 'pit dreams' for a long time, but he's basically human

So basically you're willing to let a mass-murdered off because he was jarhead who saw action and no one not in his shoes can understand?

Just another reason not to like soldiers, I guess.
 
He actually can plead it. Really, if you have never fought a war, and probably unless you have done so in a jungle, you won't understand. Most of these people do regret it for the rest of their lives; I have a mate who dropped into Borneo with me and he still wakes up most nights with the dreams, and sometimes he gets on the telephone thinking I (or his parents, or anyone) am on the other end of his radio, and I have to try and convince him that he's not in Borneo and he's not about to get jumped on by dozens of screaming men.

Sorry. You can't rationalize away the atrocities of war by claiming the perpetrators must be "mad". And if you really wanted to protect people, you certainly picked the wrong profession. You should have become a cop or a fireman instead of a warrior.

I did, as a matter of fact, but I always thought that they do a different sort of protecting. In many places the only sort of protection that normal people could have drove around in armoured vehicles and wore a helmet

So basically you're willing to let a mass-murdered off because he was jarhead who saw action and no one not in his shoes can understand?

Just another reason not to like soldiers, I guess.

I take it you never did anything like that. I'm happy, in that case, to say yes.
 
Guys, Flying Pig has different standards for soldiers because they're manly and risk their lives to kill other people and are therefore subject to extraordinary and not to mention noble circumstances.

So as a civilian, you get jail for life for killing 270. As a soldier, you get 3 years house arrest for killing 500. Can't you see that it makes perfect sense?

I wonder if I can become an engineer without qualification and then get a few weeks of house arrest if a bridge that I designed collapses killing dozens and I claim that I was drunk when I drew up the plans.
 
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