[GS] Māori Discussion Thread

[Eagle Pursuit]

There's no reason to be worried about the settler being captured by barbarians, because barbarians can't enter ocean until later and your units have 4 moves on water so it shouldn't be a problem to land them both on the same land tile starting from an ocean tile.

The concern was whether the AI can manage to land them both on the same tile in the same turn in the presence of a barbarian.

 

[Ceydezed]

Also, when are the first barbarian boats spawning?

 

[Siptah]

Also, when are the first barbarian boats spawning?

While I don't know the exact answer, I believe they don't spawn without being an alarmed camp or after quite many turns (the lonely camps on small islands for example produce them at some point without being alarmed).

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

The concern was whether the AI can manage to land them both on the same tile in the same turn in the presence of a barbarian.

Also hopefully the AI is coded to sail the starting Settler east or west, and not north or south, or those Toa are going to need to find more clothes.

Oh, another thought: I hope the direction the AI sails it's starting Settler is determined once and then continued until landfall, and not randomly determined at the start of each turn.

 

[Siptah]

Also hopefully the AI is coded to sail the starting Settler east or west, and not north or south, or those Toa are going to need to find more clothes.

Oh, another thought: I hope the direction the AI sails it's starting Settler is determined once and then continued until landfall, and not randomly determined at the start of each turn.

I actually assume that the AI can see the map and thus knowns from the start where it wants to settle.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Also hopefully the AI is coded to sail the starting Settler east or west, and not north or south, or those Toa are going to need to find more clothes.

Oh, another thought: I hope the direction the AI sails it's starting Settler is determined once and then continued until landfall, and not randomly determined at the start of each turn.

Turn 206: Your Caravel happens upon a curious sight: a Settler and a Warrior adrift and aimless in the Southern Polar Ice.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I actually assume that the AI can see the map and thus knowns from the start where it wants to settle.

I think that would be a good solution, but it goes against their current design philosophy of not giving the AI any additonal information that would cause some players to feel like it is "cheating".

Turn 206: Your Caravel happens upon a curious sight: a Settler and a Warrior adrift and aimless in the Southern Polar Ice.

That would only be funny the first time.

 

[Disgustipated]

That would only be funny the first time.

You could role play that away. I wonder how many boats from the various Pacific people's have gone astray and they never made it to any place habitable for them. I can think that hundreds, if not thousands may have died this way. But of course for a game, we wouldn't want to see one of the major civilizations in the game turn out to be a dud.

 

[shaglio]

A couple more thoughts on the Maori:

1) In the first look, the Builder discovers land on Turn 4. At 4 movement points per turn, assuming it sailed in one direction every turn, then it started roughly 16 tiles away from the shore where it settled (I've got mad math skills, yo). That's pretty far out to sea . . . unless there was land in the opposite direction that was closer, but they had the misfortune of going the wrong way on Turn 1.

2) I've heard people recently pining for old Civ 5 maps being added back into the game. Someone specifically mentioned the Highland map. That would be an interesting map to play if you randomly rolled the Maori The same issue could occur with Modder made maps with no ocean tiles.

 

[Disgustipated]

Ha, one of the youtube comments say you can just drown him out by raising sea levels. Wicked. Though I doubt raising sea levels will be as easy as games such as Alpha Centauri. Still would be funny to see all those coastal cities get flooded out.

 

[UWHabs]

A couple more thoughts on the Maori:

1) In the first look, the Builder discovers land on Turn 4. At 4 movement points per turn, assuming it sailed in one direction every turn, then it started roughly 16 tiles away from the shore where it settled (I've got mad math skills, yo). That's pretty far out to sea . . . unless there was land in the opposite direction that was closer, but they had the misfortune of going the wrong way on Turn 1.

2) I've heard people recently pining for old Civ 5 maps being added back into the game. Someone specifically mentioned the Highland map. That would be an interesting map to play if you randomly rolled the Maori The same issue could occur with Modder made maps with no ocean tiles.

I'm guessing they would have an alternate criteria. Maybe they'd just start in a lake tile instead. Although I wonder if they have any checks to make sure they start near the main landmasses - otherwise we'll get some funny screenshots of them starting in ocean trapped by ice without a place to land.

 

[Pietato]

In search of protein the Maori burned the native forests to let edible grass grow, hunted the moa to extinction and occassionally ate their enemies.

The waters and mountains were sacred, though.

 

[Trav'ling Canuck]

I'm guessing they would have an alternate criteria. Maybe they'd just start in a lake tile instead. Although I wonder if they have any checks to make sure they start near the main landmasses - otherwise we'll get some funny screenshots of them starting in ocean trapped by ice without a place to land.

The dev team mentioned that they'd been playtesting the Maori for 6 months to get the balance right because they are so unique.

Presumably the spawn location algorithm was a part of that playtesting. We know they start in Ocean tiles, so that avoids small lakes. I would guess there's a limit on how close to either pole they can start as well, which would avoid the polar ice situation. How much more sophisticated than that it may be, who knows?

 

[Kimiimaro]

Allright, it's been a day since the First Look came out, and now it's time for YouTube comments report time. I can say that vast part of the comments found Maori to be fun and enjoyable choice and Civ. So, among those that were often similar/repeating, we have:
- comments about uniqueness of the Civ
- comments about music
- comments about the very... lively Kupe's animations
- comments about OPness of the Civ (some accompanied with notes that it doesn't matter as the AI is horrible)
- Moana references
- Bionicle references
- some Civ hopes/demands
- some Ottoman hopes/demands
- few comments about saying that "Reddit leak was right"
- pronunciation complaints

I found some people who were puzzled where Polynesia and Kamehameha went, some were comparing Polynesia and Maori.

 

[MACKA0ili]

Barbarians only spawn units that are already researched, right?

That means any game with the Maori in them will have barbarian galleys and quads roaming the waters from the start

 

[WillowBrook]

Barbarians only spawn units that are already researched, right?

I'm not sure if only one civ having the tech is enough. At the very least, it will shorten the time until they show up. And barb quadremes are no fun IMO.

The dev team mentioned that they'd been playtesting the Maori for 6 months to get the balance right because they are so unique.

So at the time people were starting threads like "all quiet on the civ front", they were hard at work, and being very quiet.

 

[Steamboat Willem]

You could role play that away. I wonder how many boats from the various Pacific people's have gone astray and they never made it to any place habitable for them. I can think that hundreds, if not thousands may have died this way. But of course for a game, we wouldn't want to see one of the major civilizations in the game turn out to be a dud.

Gone astray not that many, the Polynesians were amazing navigators. Some might have gotten lost in storms though.

 

[Boris Gudenuf]

I have one issue with this (otherwise quite interesting) civ: It rewards for not playing. For not performing otherwise integral actions - or are even prohibited to perform these actions entirely.

- "Conventional" civs can harvest ressources to speed-up production/growth (and, in GS, prevent them from being destroyed by vulcanos). The Māori can't due to their inbuilt limitation.
- Other nations chop down forests and jungle for production boosts. The Māori want to avoid this.
- Sawmills are an useful tile improvement for other empires. The Māori don't need them (other than for one eureka) and they don't want them either, as they need unimproved forests.
- The Māori might even hesitate to dry swamps, as they'll lose a useful "walkable feature".

So, the Māori seem to be Brazil multiplied by 10, when it comes to collywobbles for actually "cultivating" your realm.
Is this a desirable game mechanic?
Is the prospect of very late-game spread of national parks enough to compensate for early/mid-game passivity in builder-usage?

Or is it only me seeing a problem here?

Civ has always modeled a Classic view of human society development as practiced in Eurasia. We now know that was not the only model available or practiced. I've noted this before, but I can't emphasize it enough: read Charles Mann's 1491: America Before Columbus, for a discussion of Alternate possibilities for development that were practiced in various parts of the Americas:
Cultivation of forests as much as farmland or instead of farmland, in northeastern North America, coastal California, and in the Amazon (Fun Fact: a large proportion of the trees in the Amazon rain forest were Planted - their distribution pattern is not natural to this day).
Cultivation of and very sophisticated genetic modification of completely alternative Food Plants like maize, potatoes, camas root, and Natural Resources like obsidian, Bison, llamas, planted and natural forests: any or all of these present alternatives to the 'standard' planted grain, domesticated cattle and sheep and horses model of Eurasia.

So, to me, the Maori 'model' is just the first step towards presenting us Civiacs with Alternative starting profiles and early development paths for our Civ's.

Bring It On!

 

[Giskler]

First listen is up.

 

[nzcamel]

History does not support that contention. Maori Iwi were notorious for invading other Iwi and taking the spoils of war.
You may want to look up what happened to the Chatham Islanders when the Aotearoa Maori invaded them.

Yet had the Maori (somehow! This is an impossibility I know) ended up as they were not too far from Rome, they wouldn't have coped with the legions. Discipline and armour would have carried the day. Of course it was far easier for legions to fight in the open; and so I think you would have seen Maori sticking to guerrilla warfare, and making life pretty miserable for the Romans while rarely taking them on head to head.
Of course this is all moot because had the Maori existed near Rome, they would have been less...Maori and more like the other cultures in the Med & Europe, in all things including warfare.

With all of the BS they have said about talking to kiwi's .... they make a picture of a warrior with a piece of greenstone that in reality he would struggle to lift!.
And do you know how much a piece of greenstone that size would be worth! .. and whats with the horns?
View attachment 511164

This is the real deal, sure some were a little bigger but not what is shown by any imagination. It may look small but mere were deadly
Muppets.
View attachment 511166

Eh. They're cartoon characters like a cm tall on my screen. Have you seen the size of the guns that some of the other units have?

What Sammy says Vicki - they're as out of wack as everyone else in game.

Also hopefully the AI is coded to sail the starting Settler east or west, and not north or south, or those Toa are going to need to find more clothes.

You do know how cold NZ is right!?

Barbarians only spawn units that are already researched, right?

That means any game with the Maori in them will have barbarian galleys and quads roaming the waters from the start

I suspect they would have an exemption in that stopped barbs gaining the units of outliers like the Maori.