Making arguments for the wrong reason, or, "legalize to tax it"

Interestingly, I go for "legalize it but DON'T tax it."

Sin taxes make revenue yes, but it also becomes a sort of lifestyle regulation, almost like the obesity tax. Either something is so repulsive it should not be allowed, or we should allow it freely.

While sin taxes are often designed to dissuade "bad" behaviour, they do help generate revenue to offset problems caused by the substance taxed.

Should not tobacco smokers pay a tax to offset their increased risk of cancer, if their cancer will be treated by public health systems?
 
Interestingly, I go for "legalize it but DON'T tax it."

Sin taxes make revenue yes, but it also becomes a sort of lifestyle regulation, almost like the obesity tax. Either something is so repulsive it should not be allowed, or we should allow it freely.
Sin taxes are the best taxes! Seriously.
 
While sin taxes are often designed to dissuade "bad" behaviour, they do help generate revenue to offset problems caused by the substance taxed.

Should not tobacco smokers pay a tax to offset their increased risk of cancer, if their cancer will be treated by public health systems?

That's true. It ultimately depends on how you feel about public health care. I, for one, don't believe in public healthcare the way you probably do. Let people make decisions, let them face the consequences.

Now, one area they will probably pay more is health insurance. The health insurance company can (and should) charge more for "More risky" lifestyle choices such as tobacco smoking.

If they don't have health insurance or money to pay and are dying, you have to treat them of course, but let them take on the debt and pay it eventually, however long it takes.
 
There's an extended quote in G.K. Chesterton's What's wrong with the world, but the short version is that nobody but extremists talk about what they actually want.

As a result, this actually means the less extreme people are, the more likely they are to be vitriolic. Because no one actually accepts each others arguments anymore. In modern politics, everyone always takes their opponent's argument not to be a statement of their beliefs, but what they think they can get away with.

I don't think that would be the most likely result. I mean, the important thing is that everybody participating in the political debate knows the "rules" of the game. If everybody was lying and everybody knew it it'd work.

Unfortunately you have a bit of everything, and the lies cannot be so easily told from the sincere beliefs.

Rape stats are actually terrible due to under-reporting. Sweden having a high rate of per capita rape likely indicates trust in the police and judicial system rather than more incidents of actual sexual assault.

Oh, and me thinking that the swedish rape statistics were just their rate of failure of condoms!

Trust in the swedish police and judicial system... we now all know how they work. :rolleyes:
 
Taxes are bad by default. The act of taxation should only be a last resort.

I oppose all legislation before I know what the proposed legislation will be, on the basis that it has a cost and there will be a tax in there somewhere. Also, I know in advance that the tax will be insufficient to cover the cost and will result in deficit spending and unsustainable debt.

All legislation is a restriction on someone's liberty somewhere and is therefore bad by default.

Governments primary function is to enact legislation on the one hand and pretend to pay for it with taxes on the other, while in fact concentrating power in the hands of the participating elite at the expense of individual liberty and property.

Government is therefore by default an evil that we should all work to reduce and limit.
 
Oh, and me thinking that the swedish rape statistics were just their rate of failure of condoms!

Trust in the swedish police and judicial system... we now all know how they work. :rolleyes:
Are all your witticisms this fresh?
 
Its a great argument! You kill two birds with one stone by doing it.

You make it so pot-heads have nothing else to talk about anymore and you make bank from it.
Win-win for everyone.
 
I’m thinking that most people that want to legalize drugs, especially the students mentioned by the OP, want grass and other soft drugs legalized so they can enjoy them legally. While that is a valid reason to want something legalized, it isn’t a particularly persuasive argument to convince others, so they argue other reasons, like the ability to tax drugs. The tax argument is about the simplest argument you can make because it doesn’t have a lot of draw backs—nobody can say you that the argument is wholly invalid without introducing various proofs and pieces of evidence to demonstrate that the social costs of legal drugs would outweigh the tax revenue from taxing the drugs. In addition, you don’t need to do a lot of research to claim that taxing drugs would bring in revenue, such a finding is self-evident. As such, the “tax the drugs” argument provides the maximum persuasion with the minimum effort in actually finding evidence. It is the lazy man’s argument.
 
I’m thinking that most people that want to legalize drugs, especially the students mentioned by the OP, want grass and other soft drugs legalized so they can enjoy them legally. While that is a valid reason to want something legalized, it isn’t a particularly persuasive argument to convince others, so they argue other reasons, like the ability to tax drugs. The tax argument is about the simplest argument you can make because it doesn’t have a lot of draw backs—nobody can say you that the argument is wholly invalid without introducing various proofs and pieces of evidence to demonstrate that the social costs of legal drugs would outweigh the tax revenue from taxing the drugs. In addition, you don’t need to do a lot of research to claim that taxing drugs would bring in revenue, such a finding is self-evident. As such, the “tax the drugs” argument provides the maximum persuasion with the minimum effort in actually finding evidence. It is the lazy man’s argument.

i actually don't have any desire to use drugs at all, or even to help someone else get away with it. my supp0rt for legal drugs is a natural, logical product of small government philosophy i developed out of frustration at allthe petty lawsuits and stupid laws i,ve seen. a few of those happen to go against mainstream conservative opinion. so be it, the gop aren,t the paragon of consistant either.
 
There's also the added side-benefit of not having to imprison all those non-violent drug offenders.

Ultimately though, laws should be based on rational arguments.
 
There's an extended quote in G.K. Chesterton's What's wrong with the world, but the short version is that nobody but extremists talk about what they actually want.

As a result, this actually means the less extreme people are, the more likely they are to be vitriolic. Because no one actually accepts each others arguments anymore. In modern politics, everyone always takes their opponent's argument not to be a statement of their beliefs, but what they think they can get away with.

Ha! I found it!
Spoilered for wall of text:
Spoiler :
G.K. Chesterton said:
The present chaos is due to a sort of general oblivion of all that men were originally aiming at. No man demands what he desires; each man demands what he fancies he can get. Soon people forget what the man really wanted first; and after a successful and vigorous political life, he forgets it himself. The whole is an extravagant riot of second bests, a pandemonium of pis-aller. Now this sort of pliability does not merely prevent any heroic consistency, it also prevents any really practical compromise. One can only find the middle distance between two points if the two points will stand still. We may make an arrangement between two litigants who cannot both get what they want; but not if they will not even tell us what they want. The keeper of a restaurant would much prefer that each customer should give his order smartly, though it were for stewed ibis or boiled elephant, rather than that each customer should sit holding his head in his hands, plunged in arithmetical calculations about how much food there can be on the premises. Most of us have suffered from a certain sort of ladies who, by their perverse unselfishness, give more trouble than the selfish; who almost clamor for the unpopular dish and scramble for the worst seat. Most of us have known parties or expeditions full of this seething fuss of self-effacement. From much meaner motives than those of such admirable women, our practical politicians keep things in the same confusion through the same doubt about their real demands. There is nothing that so much prevents a settlement as a tangle of small surrenders. We are bewildered on every side by politicians who are in favor of secular education, but think it hopeless to work for it; who desire total prohibition, but are certain they should not demand it; who regret compulsory education, but resignedly continue it; or who want peasant proprietorship and therefore vote for something else. It is this dazed and floundering opportunism that gets in the way of everything. If our statesmen were visionaries something practical might be done. If we ask for something in the abstract we might get something in the concrete. As it is, it is not only impossible to get what one wants, but it is impossible to get any part of it, because nobody can mark it out plainly like a map. That clear and even hard quality that there was in the old bargaining has wholly vanished. We forget that the word "compromise" contains, among other things, the rigid and ringing word "promise." Moderation is not vague; it is as definite as perfection. The middle point is as fixed as the extreme point.

If I am made to walk the plank by a pirate, it is vain for me to offer, as a common-sense compromise, to walk along the plank for a reasonable distance. It is exactly about the reasonable distance that the pirate and I differ. There is an exquisite mathematical split second at which the plank tips up. My common-sense ends just before that instant; the pirate's common-sense begins just beyond it. But the point itself is as hard as any geometrical diagram; as abstract as any theological dogma.

But this new cloudy political cowardice has rendered useless the old English compromise. People have begun to be terrified of an improvement merely because it is complete. They call it utopian and revolutionary that anyone should really have his own way, or anything be really done, and done with. Compromise used to mean that half a loaf was better than no bread. Among modern statesmen it really seems to mean that half a loaf is better than a whole loaf.

As an instance to sharpen the argument, I take the one case of our everlasting education bills. We have actually contrived to invent a new kind of hypocrite. The old hypocrite, Tartuffe or Pecksniff, was a man whose aims were really worldly and practical, while he pretended that they were religious. The new hypocrite is one whose aims are really religious, while he pretends that they are worldly and practical. The Rev. Brown, the Wesleyan minister, sturdily declares that he cares nothing for creeds, but only for education; meanwhile, in truth, the wildest Wesleyanism is tearing his soul. The Rev. Smith, of the Church of England, explains gracefully, with the Oxford manner, that the only question for him is the prosperity and efficiency of the schools; while in truth all the evil passions of a curate are roaring within him. It is a fight of creeds masquerading as policies. I think these reverend gentlemen do themselves wrong; I think they are more pious than they will admit. Theology is not (as some suppose) expunged as an error. It is merely concealed, like a sin. Dr. Clifford really wants a theological atmosphere as much as Lord Halifax; only it is a different one. If Dr. Clifford would ask plainly for Puritanism and Lord Halifax ask plainly for Catholicism, something might be done for them. We are all, one hopes, imaginative enough to recognize the dignity and distinctness of another religion, like Islam or the cult of Apollo. I am quite ready to respect another man's faith; but it is too much to ask that I should respect his doubt, his worldly hesitations and fictions, his political bargain and make-believe. Most Nonconformists with an instinct for English history could see something poetic and national about the Archbishop of Canterbury as an Archbishop of Canterbury. It is when he does the rational British statesman that they very justifiably get annoyed. Most Anglicans with an eye for pluck and simplicity could admire Dr. Clifford as a Baptist minister. It is when he says that he is simply a citizen that nobody can possibly believe him.

But indeed the case is yet more curious than this. The one argument that used to be urged for our creedless vagueness was that at least it saved us from fanaticism. But it does not even do that. On the contrary, it creates and renews fanaticism with a force quite peculiar to itself. This is at once so strange and so true that I will ask the reader's attention to it with a little more precision.

Some people do not like the word "dogma." Fortunately they are free, and there is an alternative for them. There are two things, and two things only, for the human mind, a dogma and a prejudice. The Middle Ages were a rational epoch, an age of doctrine. Our age is, at its best, a poetical epoch, an age of prejudice. A doctrine is a definite point; a prejudice is a direction. That an ox may be eaten, while a man should not be eaten, is a doctrine. That as little as possible of anything should be eaten is a prejudice; which is also sometimes called an ideal. Now a direction is always far more fantastic than a plan. I would rather have the most archaic map of the road to Brighton than a general recommendation to turn to the left. Straight lines that are not parallel must meet at last; but curves may recoil forever. A pair of lovers might walk along the frontier of France and Germany, one on the one side and one on the other, so long as they were not vaguely told to keep away from each other. And this is a strictly true parable of the effect of our modern vagueness in losing and separating men as in a mist.

It is not merely true that a creed unites men. Nay, a difference of creed unites men—so long as it is a clear difference. A boundary unites. Many a magnanimous Moslem and chivalrous Crusader must have been nearer to each other, because they were both dogmatists, than any two homeless agnostics in a pew of Mr. Campbell's chapel. "I say God is One," and "I say God is One but also Three," that is the beginning of a good quarrelsome, manly friendship. But our age would turn these creeds into tendencies. It would tell the Trinitarian to follow multiplicity as such (because it was his "temperament"), and he would turn up later with three hundred and thirty-three persons in the Trinity. Meanwhile, it would turn the Moslem into a Monist: a frightful intellectual fall. It would force that previously healthy person not only to admit that there was one God, but to admit that there was nobody else. When each had, for a long enough period, followed the gleam of his own nose (like the Dong) they would appear again; the Christian a Polytheist, and the Moslem a Panegoist, both quite mad, and far more unfit to understand each other than before.

It is exactly the same with politics. Our political vagueness divides men, it does not fuse them. Men will walk along the edge of a chasm in clear weather, but they will edge miles away from it in a fog. So a Tory can walk up to the very edge of Socialism, if he knows what is Socialism. But if he is told that Socialism is a spirit, a sublime atmosphere, a noble, indefinable tendency, why, then he keeps out of its way; and quite right too.
 
'Legalise and tax it' was also known as the Opium Wars 150 years ago.
 
i actually don't have any desire to use drugs at all, or even to help someone else get away with it. my supp0rt for legal drugs is a natural, logical product of small government philosophy i developed out of frustration at allthe petty lawsuits and stupid laws i,ve seen. a few of those happen to go against mainstream conservative opinion. so be it, the gop aren,t the paragon of consistant either.
Do understand there's a big contradiction between having a society squash lawsuits and a society with little regulation. When regulation is minimum, and lawsuits aren't feasible, people find other ways to address grievances, like shoot people.

Hygro - Was that me? I've always been pro-legalization-and-tax-it.
Naw, it was a person saying the opposite, that such an argument is not the point. Kind of woke me up.
 
Education has not been mentioned yet. The education system is fundamental to modern society yet it struggles to exist in the poorest of places. The poorest of places harbor the most lethal extremists. We can differentiate extremists from normal citizens through education. Education provides a foundation for our reputation so it consequently reduces extremism and improves security. To legalize drugs and tax them would provide essential revenue for schools and security.
 
But Janig, that's a total red herring. Yes, education is important, and yes, education needs revenue, and yes, legalizing and taxing drugs provides revenue. But we can raise revenue from other sources. Whether or not we legalize drugs should depend on the merits of legal drugs. Otherwise you could make the argument that we should legalize kidnapping for ransom and tax that, if things that are bad ought to be legalized for tax revenue.

(edit: drugs aren't bad, so the analogy isn't about if drugs are bad, but presuming drugs are illegal because they are bad).
 
Kidknapping requires two parties, one of which must have their rights infringed upon, therefor it is illegal. Drug abuse requires only one. Are you intentionally making a bad argument to further the goal of legalizing drugs?
 
I think the point he was making was "At what point to we stop legalizing something just to tax it?"

I agree with your point of view, sorta. Drug abuse does not necessarily hurt only one person - the user. There's collateral damage there that needs to be considered. Yes, sometimes it does only affect one person, but sometimes it doesn't.
 
Of course a lot of that collateral damage would disappear if drugs were legal. Assuming that legal drugs are less expensive than illegal drugs (a reasonable assumption I'd say) then we'd see property crimes related to drug use drop off as users rely upon less theft for their drug fixes. Similarly if drugs were legal then we could also assume that clean needles would be legal and readily available which could cut down on STD and Hep transmission among IV drug users.
 
Kidknapping requires two parties, one of which must have their rights infringed upon, therefor it is illegal. Drug abuse requires only one. Are you intentionally making a bad argument to further the goal of legalizing drugs?
Did you read my whole opening post? The discussion has little to do with legalizing drugs. The discussion has everything to do with logical fallacies. Particularly with regards to political rhetoric, and how that rhetoric takes on a life of its own.

Turner's got it right, too.
 
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