shyuhe
Deity
It's 8 coins from the palace, 3 coins from the city center wine tile, and 3 coins from the oasis at size 1 for 14 coins.
Mansa Musa - Inland_Sea - Deity
- Thread starter kossin
- Start date
Trystero
Deity
Thanks - I just realized after posting that you'd have to be size 3 to work the other wine. Sorry about that. 
Okay, I'll leave them as be for next round. Not that it takes less time or anything.
Correct. Commerce will not be a problem here at all so growing will be more important. For smaller city sizes, food is the strongest improvement but as you get to around size 6 hammers start being better tiles until you can grow your city more... of course it all depends on the quality of the tiles available to you.
srad
King
Pic size is fine for me (on a notebook with 1366 x 768 resolution screen) - I don't prefer bigger pictures.
I'm really curious about your tech order and the placement of city 2.
Do you go for the Oracle?
Nice to see a new walkthrough from you!
I'm really curious about your tech order and the placement of city 2.
Do you go for the Oracle?
Nice to see a new walkthrough from you!
Pic size is fine for me (on a notebook with 1366 x 768 resolution screen) - I don't prefer bigger pictures.
I'm really curious about your tech order and the placement of city 2.
Do you go for the Oracle?
Nice to see a new walkthrough from you!
Oracle was too hammer hungry for my approach. It is most certainly possible to do and would yield another interesting result, I have no doubts.
Trystero
Deity
Thanks! That was a helpful expansion/elaboration of that rule of thumb. I appreciate the feedback.
Teching after Agriculture
By turn 8, I had a good view of the east and was bringing my warrior around clockwise in a circular fashion as most do. Agriculture was also done and I was sitting at that nice 14
per turn I spoke of earlier.
One AI was met, WvO from the west via his scout.
Picking the next tech was a toughie. Bronze Working? Animal Husbandry? Hunting? Pottery? ...?
Like playing chess, don't only consider the next move... think further.
AH would only serve now if there were horses in the BFC. (which, spoiler, there aren't)
Fishing, Mysticism are in the same boat. Useless right now.
The next 4 techs I wanted were: BW, Hunting, Archery and Pottery... but in what order?
Costs: There is a 20% discount for every tech leading to an arrow to the tech researched.
BW = 202 / 1.2
Hunting = 67
Archery = 101 / 1.2
Pottery = 135/1.2
Or around 430 beakers if you include the 4% discounts on Hunting and Archery from each AI met.
Leaving Hunting and Archery for later might save more beakers as every AI is given those two techs to start with... and barbs aren't a problem for another good 30 or so turns.
Toss up between BW and Pottery.
With BW first, the tech rate would sit at 14/15/16 up until size 4, then go up by two 3~5 turns after Pottery was in... putting back Archery all the way around turn 36 or so. (Let's say 16 [ = 15 + 1 free 
each turn] beakers average, you need 26.875 = 27 turns more + 8 = t35)
It's not too uncommon for barbs on Deity to start bothering around that turn so... what about Pottery first then?
By turn 25 (5 turns on corn, 1 to move, 5 to cottage), the first cottage would be up so that once you are at size 3, you are getting 8+3+3+3 = 17 commerce
Anyway, this is what I did, the end result is that you get all 4 techs done by the start of turn 34 and you have a head start on one cottage. I actually don't know if it's better than getting BW->Pottery and chopping out a second worker, cottage and then chopping the second settler.
What I don't like with this is that either you get screwed by barbs since you put Archery at the end of the teching (t35) so the earliest you get a skirmisher out is t36 if you chop - I prefer chops to go to workers/settlers. My last game on Inland_Sea was for the Deity University and I remembered barbs were hell. My first skirmisher ended up being done on t35, which should be pretty safe in all standard settings.
Second, if you plan to chop a worker, with only 1 special tile, it takes a loooong time (9 turns - 1.5 per chop) where you're stagnating the city... so the settler takes a while to come out with a size 3 city (if you're waiting for size 4, you might lose on a good spot). I went with a 1 worker into settler approach as a result.
Okay, okay after this text of wall, back to the game.
I met Peter rather late (t12 or so? he sent a scout from south) so I assumed the east was pretty free from AIs and scouted it well.
WRONG. He's right next door and I'll probably lose most of that land to him, especially since I also have to expand west so that WvO doesn't grab everything.
Barb archers are already out to play... scouting will have to stop shortly so that I can start fogbusting a good area for the second city. So far there are a few candidates but none that stand out that much overall in terms of blocking+usefulness.
Worker micro is pretty standard.
I went Hunting->Archery next to get started on the skirmisher sooner than later.
More standard worker micro.
Fast forward a few turns...
Next tile improvements: riverside plains hill (food was already ok, plus you get another commerce) and then the other plains hill (didn't want to spend 2 extra turns moving and at size 5 without a granary, both improvements are actually worth the same in terms of production since 1F=1H then).
Bronze Working reveals the location of city #2 with good blocking value. The warrior has been fogbusting that area for a while, I was a bit too scared from the empty areas east and west to send him there.
Next I go AH->Writing. Writing directly is too early, I won't have the worker turns to make a network to Peter... and also I don't know if I can actually take that spot from him so I may need a backup plan. Also, horses. The settler is started next turn and the skirmisher goes around a bit.
I just noticed a mistake I did, which delayed city #2 by 1 turn... shows that even when I'm trying, mistakes are happening left and right. Oh well... I was short 1 hammer that could be gotten via overflow from the skirmisher. I could always have whipped I suppose but with only 1 worker it felt wrong to whip so I didn't.
So much for fogbusting east... the brunt of those barbs will likely head south to Peter.
Skip a few more turns... the only visible horses. Yes, the only...
I make another cottage and then start roads due south. After the settler, I pop another Skirmisher as the one I had was sent south at the last moment for protection. Another worker is queued next as it's too early for a settler, I want to explore west a bit.
I said the same thing in my last posted game, make sure the road is finished before settling, or you lose 2 commerce.
And this wraps up the first segment. We have very good commerce, OK food and OK production.
As usual, if you want any clarifications, just ask.
By turn 8, I had a good view of the east and was bringing my warrior around clockwise in a circular fashion as most do. Agriculture was also done and I was sitting at that nice 14
per turn I spoke of earlier.One AI was met, WvO from the west via his scout.
Picking the next tech was a toughie. Bronze Working? Animal Husbandry? Hunting? Pottery? ...?
Like playing chess, don't only consider the next move... think further.
AH would only serve now if there were horses in the BFC. (which, spoiler, there aren't)
Fishing, Mysticism are in the same boat. Useless right now.
The next 4 techs I wanted were: BW, Hunting, Archery and Pottery... but in what order?
Spoiler :
Costs: There is a 20% discount for every tech leading to an arrow to the tech researched.
BW = 202 / 1.2
Hunting = 67
Archery = 101 / 1.2
Pottery = 135/1.2
Or around 430 beakers if you include the 4% discounts on Hunting and Archery from each AI met.
Leaving Hunting and Archery for later might save more beakers as every AI is given those two techs to start with... and barbs aren't a problem for another good 30 or so turns.
Toss up between BW and Pottery.
With BW first, the tech rate would sit at 14/15/16 up until size 4, then go up by two 3~5 turns after Pottery was in... putting back Archery all the way around turn 36 or so. (Let's say 16 [ = 15
+ 1 free each turn] beakers average, you need 26.875 = 27 turns more + 8 = t35)It's not too uncommon for barbs on Deity to start bothering around that turn so... what about Pottery first then?
By turn 25 (5 turns on corn, 1 to move, 5 to cottage), the first cottage would be up so that once you are at size 3, you are getting 8+3+3+3 = 17 commerce
Anyway, this is what I did, the end result is that you get all 4 techs done by the start of turn 34 and you have a head start on one cottage. I actually don't know if it's better than getting BW->Pottery and chopping out a second worker, cottage and then chopping the second settler.
What I don't like with this is that either you get screwed by barbs since you put Archery at the end of the teching (t35) so the earliest you get a skirmisher out is t36 if you chop - I prefer chops to go to workers/settlers. My last game on Inland_Sea was for the Deity University and I remembered barbs were hell. My first skirmisher ended up being done on t35, which should be pretty safe in all standard settings.
Second, if you plan to chop a worker, with only 1 special tile, it takes a loooong time (9 turns - 1.5 per chop) where you're stagnating the city... so the settler takes a while to come out with a size 3 city (if you're waiting for size 4, you might lose on a good spot). I went with a 1 worker into settler approach as a result.
Okay, okay
after this text of wall, back to the game.I met Peter rather late (t12 or so? he sent a scout from south) so I assumed the east was pretty free from AIs and scouted it well.
WRONG. He's right next door and I'll probably lose most of that land to him, especially since I also have to expand west so that WvO doesn't grab everything.
Spoiler :
Barb archers are already out to play... scouting will have to stop shortly so that I can start fogbusting a good area for the second city. So far there are a few candidates but none that stand out that much overall in terms of blocking+usefulness.
Worker micro is pretty standard.
Spoiler :
I went Hunting->Archery next to get started on the skirmisher sooner than later.
More standard worker micro.
Spoiler :
Fast forward a few turns...
Spoiler :
Next tile improvements: riverside plains hill (food was already ok, plus you get another commerce) and then the other plains hill (didn't want to spend 2 extra turns moving and at size 5 without a granary, both improvements are actually worth the same in terms of production since 1F=1H then).
Bronze Working reveals the location of city #2 with good blocking value. The warrior has been fogbusting that area for a while, I was a bit too scared from the empty areas east and west to send him there.
Spoiler :
Next I go AH->Writing. Writing directly is too early, I won't have the worker turns to make a network to Peter... and also I don't know if I can actually take that spot from him so I may need a backup plan. Also, horses. The settler is started next turn and the skirmisher goes around a bit.
I just noticed a mistake I did, which delayed city #2 by 1 turn... shows that even when I'm trying, mistakes are happening left and right. Oh well... I was short 1 hammer that could be gotten via overflow from the skirmisher. I could always have whipped I suppose but with only 1 worker it felt wrong to whip so I didn't.
So much for fogbusting east... the brunt of those barbs will likely head south to Peter.
Spoiler :
Skip a few more turns... the only visible horses. Yes, the only...
Spoiler :
I make another cottage and then start roads due south. After the settler, I pop another Skirmisher as the one I had was sent south at the last moment for protection. Another worker is queued next as it's too early for a settler, I want to explore west a bit.
I said the same thing in my last posted game, make sure the road is finished before settling, or you lose 2 commerce.
Spoiler :
And this wraps up the first segment. We have very good commerce, OK food and OK production.
As usual, if you want any clarifications, just ask.
I would have chosen a different tech path here
Given that you had ok commerce, mining, the wheel and hills to do i would have skipped pottery and cottages for the opening and do BW first.
Then you see if you need Hunting/Archery (wouldn't be needed in this case).
With no copper around there would still have been time to go Skirms, esp. cos you can chop 'em now as needed. Just my 2c.
Given that you had ok commerce, mining, the wheel and hills to do i would have skipped pottery and cottages for the opening and do BW first.
Then you see if you need Hunting/Archery (wouldn't be needed in this case).
With no copper around there would still have been time to go Skirms, esp. cos you can chop 'em now as needed. Just my 2c.
+1, I have to scroll around to see a full image even when fullscreen, and browsing in a window it becomes painful. It's not like there's a reason for resolution any higher than is needed to read ingame text, right?
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 27,227
Could you do 1280x720 res, as you did before? Scrolling the screen sideways to read the text is a bit tedious
That is why folks put pics in spoilers tags. Open the spoiler > view the pic > close the spoiler > there you have it. I like big pics... it allows you to see the details.
edit: yeah...okay...those last pics are a bit large. I'm okay with it, but I can see it being an issue for smaller monitors.
Ok, the silly 2
of a guy with a 1024x768 monitor. 
(If someone cares about what the issue is about with lower resolution monitors).
I really don't mind about images being big, also if out of the spoiler.
But if posting bigger images (without spoiler), since the "visible" post column is about 800-900px large for me,
hitting "enter" to split longer sentences over few more lines it would definitely be appreciated.
Aesthetically it might not be the best, and I'm not requesting to do it:
I know I'm in the minority having such a limited max. resolution available.
I just thought OP might like to know what could be a (creative, silly) alternative which might please everyone.
That said, every solution is fine with me, as long as it is an interesting write up, as in this case.
I would have chosen a different tech path here
Given that you had ok commerce, mining, the wheel and hills to do i would have skipped pottery and cottages for the opening and do BW first.
Then you see if you need Hunting/Archery (wouldn't be needed in this case).
With no copper around there would still have been time to go Skirms, esp. cos you can chop 'em now as needed. Just my 2c.
Now that I'm done playing the game, I went back and tried BW->Pottery. In this instance, I find myself liking much much better Pottery->BW. Feel free to try it out and compare.
As for Hunting/Archery... well yes, I was lucky and didn't need it too much. It's an added security mostly and as Mansa it's even nicer in case of an early DoW.
Sure, but in the interest of saving myself some time, I won't re-do the last set's pictures.
Are the longer sentences/paragraphs readable in the first set (round 0)?
If all the big images are in spoilers, the text always fits the page and is visible.
Spoiler :
All the lines of my previous post would stay on screen, no matter how many (not spoiler) big images you add.
The longest line in that post, is the longest line fill just a line on 1024x768.
EDIT
Spoiler :
But please don't get crazy! If this makes you work more and it is tedious, just forget about it!
The contents is what matters to me!
Hmm, i'd like to understand why. The cottages commerce doesn't make up for the turns spent on archery and the bit slower copper city. Maybe iam missing something
Bebekija
King
Anyone care to explain this?
Is this some kind of rule of thumb ?
If yes, what's the reasoning behind it ? Cause usually when I evaluate tile yields I stick with the AIs rule of F=5, H=3, C=2. Is it a mistake?
Or is it specific to this game and the tiles worked?
If so, then I don't get it. Are you talking about the growth from P5 to P6 or about a 2 pop-whip from P5 to P3 then regrow? Any way I tried the maths and the numbers don't add up.
What am I missing?
LeftAdjoint
Warlord
I think the point is that you usually shouldn't whip without a granary, so you make primarily workers and settlers at 1
= 1 
. Two plains hills and one grassland hill are workable, and kossin was justifying improving the second plains hill before the grassland hill. Saved a turn, and adds up to the same thing at the only time it counts. (later, presumably, both hills will be mined and one can work whichever is best then)Bebekija
King
Got it. Thx.
This brings another question though.
I guess there was no time to build the granary before the settler in order to settle #2 ASAP.
At one point though, my understanding is that whipping workers and settlers and overflowing into other stuff is one of the better strategies (assuming of course that you have enough food, which seems to be the case here).
So my question is : on what basis do you decide to switch to a granary and start whipping ?
Obviously the amount of land available, the tendencies of AIS to REX (or not) , barb pressure, etc... all matter in some way, but maybe you could share your usual thought process?
This brings another question though.
I guess there was no time to build the granary before the settler in order to settle #2 ASAP.
At one point though, my understanding is that whipping workers and settlers and overflowing into other stuff is one of the better strategies (assuming of course that you have enough food, which seems to be the case here).
So my question is : on what basis do you decide to switch to a granary and start whipping ?
Obviously the amount of land available, the tendencies of AIS to REX (or not) , barb pressure, etc... all matter in some way, but maybe you could share your usual thought process?
- Joined
- Mar 11, 2008
- Messages
- 27,227
^^^for me it is high food/low production start. That is, few hills and forests. In other words, the bulk of your hammers are coming from whips - at least early. In other cities besides the cap I will try to get up the granary asap, unless a particular city is so low food that a gran would not do that much early.
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