Discussion in 'Civ4 - Strategy & Tips' started by kossin, Jun 28, 2011.
Kossin is back. GOOOOOOD! Subscribed again.
Relying solely on warriors or the presence of copper for barbarians is a gamble. When you don't know, you take your precautions. At least, I try to do now as I'm tired of losing 50% battles to barb Archers
A granary is a big 60H investment, that's 60% of a settler. Sometimes whipping can land you a city you'd lose otherwise but even with a granary, your total production over 10 turns might be inferior to not whipping.
I actually delayed the granary a very long time (very very) here because the capital was producing back-to-back settlers for a long time and the happy cap was low for a while.
Nice worker micro! Didn't know (think of that)!
I hope my silly questions aren't too out of place for this thread considering I'm still very new to this game and light-years from deity, but here goes anyway.
- What's the benefit of starting to build a road on the wine tile and then canceling it right away ?
- You mention that the barbs will probably bother Peter to the south instead of you. You both seem to be equidistant to the barbs, so what is this based on, or is it just a guess ?
- How do you lose 2C not building a road first to the settled spot, and even if you did lose 2C temporarily, I assume you wouldn't delay settling if the settler was ready beforehand ?
If the worker had just moved to the floodplains, it would have used both its moves up that turn, and be ready to start on the next improvement the next turn.
By moving one square, and then roading, half a road is built on that tile, to be finished later. Next turn move a square to the floodplains, and start building the improvement.
Net gain is half a road, compared to moving straight there.
The underlying reason is because the worker does the same work towards an improvement per turn regardless of whether the unit has one or two moves left.
Workers can move two spaces, one space and work, or work where they are. If the worker works in any given turn, he does the same amount of work regardless of how much movement he has left. Furthermore, the game remembers work that you start to do but don't finish. So, if you're moving between two flat tiles, you can either choose to move two spaces then work the following turn, or you can move one space, work, move one space and work in the same amount of time. On normal speed you get half a road down for "free."
+2 is from having a domestic trade route between a city and the capital; one for the capital and for the city. If you don't have the route, you forfeit that two until you do.
The barb thing confuses me too, but I think barbs that spawn in cities don't leave their cities. Besides that one tile, barbs do not spawn within cultural boundaries or one space from them in any direction. That means that Kossin's right flank is mostly secured from barbs. I don't know what that has to do with Peter, though.
There's one more subtle point here: trade routes refresh when the turn begins, or when a city is built. So if you build a city and finish a road on the same turn, order matters. Road first, you get the trade route commerce this turn, but city first, you don't.
Most has already been answered but let me add some precision:
1- Use every worker turn you can in the early game. This way you can get away with fewer workers. This is gaining 1 worker turn as I will need a road south eventually.
2- The barb city will fogbust in a 5x5 ring around itself. I've rarely seen pillaging barbs move through their own cities' culture and Peter is 50% expanding north (or south, not much room in other directions likely).
3- As others said, if a city is founded but not connected to your existing network, it will not get trade routes. Getting the traderoute from your first city is the most important one because you typically get hit with -3 gold maintenance, while the city itself only adds 1 or 2 commerce (city tile+riverside tile). With the network you gain a traderoute in the capital (+1) and one in the new city (+1 = +2 total), therefore adding 3 or 4 commerce to the empire, which means more beakers at 100% research and the same or more gold at 0% research.
2 commerce isn't much? Consider having 20 commerce total (this is will only happen if you have gems/gold in the BFC by the time you settle the second city)... 2 commerce is still 10% of 20... it all adds up.
To check for the network is done 3 times (that I know of, didn't find other instances) :
a) when you found a city (only for that city). If no network when settling, no traderoute that turn even if you finish the road after (unless conditions a) or b) ).
b) at the start of each turn (for every city on the map).
c) when you open borders with an AI, the check is done once again.
c) is mostly useful when you are connecting your network to the AI. Note that this overrides a) and acts just like b).
For example, you met 2 AIs on a continent, one close, one far.
You have Writing but no network to the close AI.
To complete the network to the close AI, you have to go in his borders and finish a road for 2 turns.
ONLY Open borders with close AI , send worker(s) to finish network connection.
Once the road is done, open borders with FAR AI.
You'll gain 1C/city as long as the AI has more cities than you.
This is also useful for Sailing trade networks, keep closed borders with an irrelevant AI until the turn the network is complete [completing Sailing most likely, could be exploration too] and you gain 2C/city compared to not doing so.
In the end, it's small gains yes. But you never know when those 2C will allow you to finish Music 1 turn earlier than Pacal and steal the free GA. Snowball effect at work!
Oh, forgot to answer
Yep this is a lesson everyone of us prolly learned the hard way, Deity barbs.
What bothers me about archers thou is the 25h for a unit that is pretty bad on offense (Skirms are a nice exception, but still not perfect), which can take an annoying while to build.
While trying for horses would be a waste with no animals, BW fixes the production problem for emergency situations and i'd pretty much always try it first with mining on board before i consider archery.
Kossin, please don't give away all our deity secrets, thanks.
There might be an update tonight, but don't hold your breath. I have to go through the autosaves to take screenshots as I had not intended in making a playthrough as I went along at first - making it a lot longer than simply writing text while screenshots upload.
Good thing this isn't called the Daily Round anymore
I'm sure many here would like to see DR resurrected
Reading and learning from Kossin and TMIT's walkthroughs are the single biggest reason why I play on Emperor and not Noble...I miss the glory days of DR!
Thanks for posting your game Kossin. Have followed you since DR1 through them all.
I think your math here is incorrect. Lets take a tech that costs 100 beakers. By dividing 100 by 1.2, you are finding out what number 100 is 120% of. In this case, 100 is 120% of 83.3. A 20% discount of 100 is of course 80, which is found by 100 * .8.
To make division work for 80%, you would need to divide by 1.25 (which is 1/.8). 80 is 80% of 100, 100 is 125% of 80.
You gain a 20% increase to beakers towards the tech rather than a 20% reduction to cost so the /1.2 is actually right even thou he said reduction
I think it's correct, in fact, but the statement that you get a 20% discount is not. What happens is that your /turn are multiplied by 1.2. (there are other factors, though...)
Haha, I knew I should not have tried to correct the mighty Kossin!
Civ4 likes to use the 'bonus' as a divider. It's the same for the City Raider promotion for example, it is at first subtracted from the city defense and then divides the strength of the defender.
Back to techs...
20% discount is just the term that's been used on the forums for a while.
As others have said, it's your total beakers * 1.2.
So the number of turns to research a tech is
Tech cost / [1.2 * total beakers]
Tech cost/1.2 ... becomes the actual cost of the tech and you just divide by your current tech rate.
Technically for rounding issues it's more accurate to consider your beaker rate than the tech cost but it's also longer.
Securing enough land
We left on t46, now onward with t47 and the next few...
The skirmisher protecting the copper city can be moved away, there's very very little fog remaining in that area so barbs aren't too much of a bother.
But they'll be roaming around the capital for a while trying to pillage and harassing... there just wasn't a big wave of attacks.
Leaving the second city undefended allows me to send a skirmisher west to find potential city sites besides the obvious rice+cows. (he encounters some barbs in route so it's a long trek still)
The new city is starting a backup skirmisher just in case while the worker mines the copper.
Finally, I find Willem's borders. While he isn't too close, if left unchecked too long he can squeeze in a few cities and I'll be left with not much to grab.
I need settlers, quick, and a settling plan. I don't even care if it's not optimal city placement, more land, more cities, the earlier the better. Having the possibility of making 1 nice city generate 200 beakers a turn in 150 turns is nice, but if you split it in 2 and double your beakers in the short term, odds are you'll be in better shape. There's an unwritten inflation in Civ4 where food, hammers and commerce are worth more on the preceding turn.
This is the plan.
There's quite a bit of overlap, away from the river and even stuck against the side of the map but... this is what it'll look like if I can sneak 3 settlers over there in time, even without border pops.
The northern city is particularly bad until Civil Service but it does grant me 1 extra health and a few forests.
After mining the copper I have a decision to make. I can either start farming a flood plain for +1 food or add a road to get a network going to Peter. I stopped a while here because I was uncertain which was better... I even took a paper and a pen to check out the food count & growth of the city... in hindsight it's easy.
Farm first = +3 food
Road first = +14 commerce (7 turns of +1C/city)
Make your pick
If I remember correctly, not adding the farm did not actually slow down growth to size 4 so eh...
I went over this yesterday in a post. How to 'trick' the game in giving you your pennies.
1. Finish network connection.
2. Notice network connection sign, there are no trade routes atm. bpt 23
3. Open borders with last AI... try keeping an AI that opens borders easily.
4. Collect your pennies. bpt 25
I have a dream plan for Djenne. I could also have used it for getting another settler earlier but at the time I thought this would be better with the capital already busy with settlers.
Grow to 4, work farmed fp+copper and 2 scientists! During that time it can build a few Axes or 1 worker with decent production.
The corn is still unhooked so it will have 4 health available.
As I said, barbs were being a nuisance, occupying tiles I need badly. Good thing I have skirmishers already.
Uhhhh... why did this end up way too close for my liking >.<
With some of the barb bothers, city #3 is founded on t62... realllllly slow! I had to use a chop in an Axe with the dead Skirmisher, slowing me down.
1 worker making a road, the other's gonna cottage.
-2H+2C PH -> Wine
Mathematics in 1 instead
Delay the chop until next turn for 30 hammers in the library to start farming the Academy 2 turns earlier. (30H-20H = 10H/5H/t = 2 turns)
I was really happy about my plan for Djenne until it actually grew to size 4 (2 turns before this shot).
You see, it doesn't have fresh water. 2 health base, 1 from corn, and 1 from trees... because there were only 4 (0.5 health per tree in BFC, rounded down, I chopped 1 so 3*0.5 = 1.5 = 1)!!!! I'm forced to work the unimproved floodplain for 17 turns because I don't have a backup plan for gpp and I certainly don't want to switch Timbuktu to a library now.
17*4 = 68H
On the flip side of things, teching is going very well, maybe too well. A better balance with hammers would be a better approach no doubt.
I won't bother you with screenshots of every trade I did but instead here's an overview - I was quite greedy but I'm pretty close to the absolute tech lead.
You can also see that Oracle went very very late for some reason, grabbing it is also another good play.
Yet another annoying barb. City #4 would already be settled for a few turns and I'd be working on city #5 - I lost some worker turns and about 60H worth of defensive units. Note I am at 3 workers at the moment - get them early to improve your first 2 cities then send them away with the new ones. Making new ones at home is faster than settling a city and waiting 15 turns for it to make a worker.
The block is almost complete with a few Math-enhanced chops the last settler is almost done.
I wanted that city it's pretty nice and I might have been able to expand a bit more east... well I went with West expansion so it's only normal that I can't get east stuff. At least, I was able to snag the worker.
And we've secured land for at least 6 good cities! I need another round of settlers but at least I can breathe a bit now.
The warrior just came in this turn from Gao in the previous screenshot to avoid an angry citizen at size 4. I'm letting the city grow to 5 and then will start a settler.
I focused too much on commerce in the early game and as a result my initial expansion phase was slowed down considerably. For example, delaying a cottage in one of the new cities for a few turns and adding a chop instead in the capital would be more secure for land grabbing and possibly getting rid of barbs more easily.
OTOH, I can keep expanding while maintaining a pretty decent tech rate. Currency is due in 2 and an Academy will be in the capital in 5 turns.
A strong tech rate at the beginning is nothing to be sneered at, tech is often more important than land early on Deity be it for bribing or whatever you need.
While barbs were annoying, it was very far from the worst they could be so I'm not blaming my poor play (too much) on them.
Next set: final expansion phase
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