Mansa Musa - Inland_Sea - Deity

Control

Most games can be divided in 3 phases: initial expansion, empire management and finally the way to victory. Many people have put names and arbitrary dates around these... I will leave it up to you to decide. The sooner phase 1 is over, the better - that is for certain. Depending on what you are looking for phase 3 (what victory condition), phase 2 can be pretty long (ex. Space Victory means a lot of techs) or pretty short (catapult-based Domination). Phase 1 is the most important in relation to game impact. If you do well here, you'll have a good advantage for the rest of the game even if you slack off after the first 50 turns hehe.
If you have a so-so opening, then mastering the second phase can give you a better chance in winning the game, especially techwise with good GPP planning. Finally, given more or less techs to the AI, it's pretty easy to come out ahead given our ability to actually think.

I find I don't particularly excel at either of the first 2 phases, often lacking imagination in the second one. I still have a hard time finding the right balance between hammers/food and research early on while I don't generally plan out well enough my GPP. This game is another proof of it after all: too many cottages means less food means less hammers means slower cities means slower development of said cities which end up slowing research... a high tech rate is not always the most desirable thing if it slows you down elsewhere.

In this screenshot, the beaker rate is up to 300/turn by 100AD. However it comes at several prices. Expansion was already discussed but now looking at the capital we can see it's fairly small at size 9 and with only +6 food surplus.
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It needs 20 food to grow to the next size... if there was 1 farm instead of a cottage, we'd grow in 3 turns, gain more food/hammers/commerce from another earlier citizen etc.

Since growth is linear (and especially with a granary), a city focused on food only keeps growing faster and faster, it's the function x/(x+a) that tends to converge at 1 once x becomes large, whatever the value of a =\= -x. The capital could possibly already be size 12 by this time and using the Bureaucracy bonus on those mines to quickly hammer out infrastructure.
OTOH, with a/x (new pops always on green cottages), this function tends towards 0 as x gets large... growth starts to slow down. I normally aim at a 8 food surplus before doing this, it means a pretty good growth rate through size 20.

Another option is GPP... with 1 GS and 1 GA sleeping, the next GP is due in 15 turns at this rate. If we double the number of specialists by adding 2 scientists on the previous turn (t118), we get +6 gpp +100% so.... 18+12 = 30, the next GP in 10 turns on t129. That is early enough to tell us if we can double-bulb Education while losing a few beakers from the second bulb BUT gaining a larger tech from Liberalism - or in the event that the GP failed to be a scientist, early enough to still tech through Education with a single bulb and win Liberalism on most occasions.

Morale of the story: don't overcottage too early, the payback lots of cottages comes at Democracy, but at the same time you could be in a position of winning the game via Cavalry, only 100 turns earlier!

Of course I can say all this looking back, it's always harder when you are playing and not looking forward too much (as I was).



When you are short on worker, it's "okay" to work food neutral tiles that bring in some commerce/hammers, rather than whipping away improved tiles at the first instance you start working an unimproved one. Here, a cottage city gets 2-whipped to get some overflow going into more expensive buildings as it has no production whatsoever.
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This city normally has a +8 food surplus. By removing 2 pop, we are also reducing the amount of food needed for growing, without modifying the food surplus... so growth will be fast, i.e. we can whip again soon in the same fashion. With more workers available, it's arguable that you could simply keep growing on cottages, but at the cost of infrastructure... I like to balance things as I don't like pure cottage cities in general.


So much for getting horses, HC's 3rd borders pop before my second... at 1 cpt, I'm never getting horses from that underdevelopped city. I don't have any workers in the area to start farming the grassland .... bad bad bad.
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Kumbi Saleh, 4 turns after the whip. As you can see, it will be ready to be whipped next turn again. Just queue something cheap that you need up front the turn before you whip. If that forest was instead a farm, the city would aready have grown, meaning 4 turns cycle for whipping... that's 15H/t instead of 12.5H/t (60/5 + 2~3/5 from the forest).
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This one started a worker. I could have whipped but:
-the religion was not yet spread so minus 15H
-the extra citizen really didn't consume food and added a tiny bit of commerce overall.
-whipping would remove a farm and slow growth from an already weak city
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Kumbi Saleh once again, getting production from its overflow. Adding whips adds anger but adding infrastructure often removes anger (ex. Forge, Market)... so it kinda evens out in the end. Whip! Whip!
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Short on workers as I said... it often happens that after the first 2~3 cities you should spam settlers and not alternate between settler/worker. Sure it's more of a puzzle to get your workers all over the place but grabbing 1 or 2 extra cities can make a game a lot easier. Get your workers out after the cities are down, maybe even get more than you would otherwise so that your land is improved quickly and in time for your cities. Here, I'm behind 4 or 5 still as several cities are getting whipped down while some auxiliary ones are just stagnating... which isn't so bad but it still is... it could have meant horses this game. Also note the unhooked Silk... what was I thinking.
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A while ago I learned the formula that determines the number of beakers you get when bulbing. It's not too important and I even forget the exact numbers. The thing to remember though, is that the more population points you have, the more beakers you'll get.

When you get to bulbing a big tech, like Education, if you want to single bulb only, try to time it so that your population is at its biggest but before you lose beakers from the bulb to maximize the effect of the GP you use. If I wait a few turns here, I'll get a few more beakers out of the scientist. It says 1665 for the record.
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AI-to-AI relations, close to what we would normally expect.
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For some reason I declined this while playing... I really don't know why, it's actually pretty stupid now come to think of it.
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Resource trades. I am trading away both of my Wines while getting Wine in return from the copper hehe. The earlier unhooked silk is worth at least 7gpt as we can see here.
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A small micro suggestion.
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Original city micro. The plains farm has just been completed.

7*1.25 = 8.75 = 8... 0.75H lost

If you move the mine to the farm... you gain 1 turn on growth. So +2F-3H, no rounding loss here.

The next turn... 10-8 = +2... so the total is +2F-1H comparatively.


If I wait a few turns here, I'll get a few more beakers out of the scientist. It says 1665 for the record.
Not that I bulbed here, but you can see the number of beakers went up to 1686... once again pennies but it can mean getting to Liberalism 1 turn earlier instead of coming empty handed. I did not bulb PP right now... I probably should have for the added commerce though.
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This is an interesting situation. I can whip the city to get some OF going into a Forge and gain 1F from the unimproved tile no longer being worked or suck it up 1 turn and get more commerce which is what I did. A few more workers might have solved this...
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Similar situation. You lose 1F from the unimproved flood plain this turn (+11 surplus), but gain 1F from the fish next turn so it evens out (+13 surplus). However, if you whip next turn, you gain 1C overall (+12 +12 surplus).
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WvO, who built the AP, has been kindly spreading the religion to me. I've slowly started converting my cities to Hinduism so that I can
-build the AP buildings
-revolt to Hinduism when the time is right... ! WvO is cautious to me after all. But he's looking more to be in religious/wonder mode than warring anyway.
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SB decided to go after DeGaulle in a dogpile... pretty funny stuff there.
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I am never getting those horses back, sigh.
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I forgot to start Universities right after Education was done. Yikes!! Given the low pop of the capital, it will be forever before Oxford is up!!
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Another SB stack... at first I thought it was a pincer attack but he was heading south in fact... can't hope for too much from the AI.
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Hmmm... HC and Willem can get Liberalism, so much for getting a good tech out of it.
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I can finish Liberalism already, but I'm waiting for this University to complete. No AI, even at Deity, is going to complete Liberalism in 2 turns on Normal speed. Unless something went completely wrong.
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Poor DG is being pounded on from both sides. He makes a good scape goat for me.
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Typical Liberalism->Nationalism. I figured I could try my hand at the Taj with Marble (but I don't really have any production anywhere that can handle it). Had I 2x bulbed Education and researched Nationalism instead, Military Tradition, for example, would have been available. Constitution not too far off either... too bad.
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I stopped this round at the next turn because I finished PP the following turn after bulbing it once. And because loading an auto-save into Liberalism doesn't give you the tech so the overview is wrong. I'm doing pretty well, beaker rate is nearing 500 per turn and with Universities coming in, it's only going up... I just need to find some way to do something about a victory or another...
In terms of trades, iIrc I grabbed Gunpowder from DG a few turns later, which I wanted anyway and because it gave him a few techs to buy peace from SB/Monty should he want to.
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And it's precisely this turn that I noticed this...
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Peter got himself another source of horses... damn... it's gonna be an expensive rental. War with Cannons is okay... it's good when you're going up against someone bigger than yourself especially... but with this many cities, horses will be great, albeit expensive until I can claim my own!
 
Just one thing about the screenshots, your power rating :):):):):) Hope you manage to pull this one off.
 
Willem being cautious on your shared border is a bit of a risk though.

True, which is one of the reasons why I started spreading Hinduism. I still rarely see him start warring so maybe I am underestimating him a bit.

iIrc I didn't share enough tiles with him to be a land target for quite some time though.

Finishing the update as I post this.

EDIT: the update is posted, if you can't find it or are lazy, it's linked in the OP as usual.
 
I'm guessing 0% slider while he built his universities.

I've had some bad experiences with Willem. He's not a Shaka but his "no war" percentages are pretty low. I find his low religion diplo cap of +2 to be the most annoying part though... Especially since he can plot at pleased.
 
I like your writeups Kossin. Did you get that huge chunk of gold we see in the last screen shots from a GM or did you trade or put your slider down?
Thanks for the kind words.

Just 0% slider as shyuhe said. A few shots up you can see I'm making over 230gpt at 0% slider so it doesn't take too long to get that much.

I'm guessing 0% slider while he built his universities.

I've had some bad experiences with Willem. He's not a Shaka but his "no war" percentages are pretty low. I find his low religion diplo cap of +2 to be the most annoying part though... Especially since he can plot at pleased.
True... I remember one of my first Immortal games where I lost because of WvO... but ever since then I find him too busy doing culture/science to do anything else... I don't know why. Not that I'm complaining :D

But yes, it's a possible problem normally. Maybe I was lucky but I never had any problems with him this game.

~~~

A few more days for the next update again, sorry for the slow pace!
 
A few more days for the next update again, sorry for the slow pace!

No problem! I really appreciate the level of detail and the quality of analysis that you provide in your writeups. I much prefer a high-detail/slow-posting writeup over the opposite. :goodjob:
 
Ditto about the quality updates. I especially liked the thought of dividing the game into three basic phases.

The more games I play, the more it feels like the balance between food and commerce should slowly start shifting (food starts out super valuable, but by the middle of the game, it's not nearly as good; whereas you don't need as much commerce in the beginning as you do in phase two). It seems like you feel the same way, yes?
 
No problem! I really appreciate the level of detail and the quality of analysis that you provide in your writeups. I much prefer a high-detail/slow-posting writeup over the opposite. :goodjob:

I couldnt agree more. One question: when you went for music, you also had quite a chunk of gold, enabling you to research at 100%. Some of that came from the captured barb cities, but did you save that up while doing binary research or did you trade some techs for it?
Despite your write-ups being so greatly detailed, perhaps you could add some pictures from the other cities at least at one point - I would really like to know, what you build first in the later found cities - my general question is, until what time/turn does it make sense to cottage a city or are later cities only for hammers or/and to get enough libraries in time for Oxford.
 
Sorry, I'll answer tonight.

Short answers:

Yes, balance out food/commerce-research, as they become more and more similar later.

Binary research before Music, was checking if the AIs were researching Literature/Drama. As I was out of gold after Literature, if an AI was making his way there, I'd have to make a run for it 100% with building wealth to get a better shot at it - but they didn't.
 
I couldnt agree more. One question: when you went for music, you also had quite a chunk of gold, enabling you to research at 100%. Some of that came from the captured barb cities, but did you save that up while doing binary research or did you trade some techs for it?
This one I already explained but I think I can put it more clearly.

When I finished Literature,
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I was out of gold. Since I always try to binary research to avoid losing some commerce to roundoffs, there's no actual difference in terms of completion date of the tech if you binary every time you're out of gold or if you wait until you have all the gold necessary to go through the tech.

In that screenshot, we can see it will take 8 turns to complete Music and about -40gpt at 100% science. Getting 300~350 gold would be enough to complete it in one shot.

Now, while you're accumulating your gold at 0%, you can wait to see if a strong-research AI is looking like he's heading that direction via espionage or via F4 screen to see if he gets Literature. This gives you 2 hints: 1) the AI's relative teching speed and 2) whether you have a chance to beat him to Music
Finally, if you find out you're going to miss on the freebie, then simply research something else.

This is the same strategy I'd recommend for trading with AIs in the late game for keeping up in the tech race.

In this game, I accumulated more gold after starting Music via barb city captures and Parthenon failure gold (which I didn't mention in the set report, it was about 50 iIrc). In a tight race, start researching the tech before you have all of the necessary gold and hope for getting some extra via trade, beg, city capture, failure gold, trade mission or simply building wealth.

Despite your write-ups being so greatly detailed, perhaps you could add some pictures from the other cities at least at one point - I would really like to know, what you build first in the later found cities - my general question is, until what time/turn does it make sense to cottage a city or are later cities only for hammers or/and to get enough libraries in time for Oxford.

Sure, I'll make a round of the various cities at the current date and try to explain before moving on to the next set.

For your other question... imo cottage cities should be settled before turn 100 as an arbitrary date. There's not really a set time for it but ideally, you want your cities to reach maturity - or contribution state - roughly at the same time so that you can execute a plan of your choice at some point in the game.

For instance, if you're Axe rushing, how many extra cities are you going to plant?
The answer is either 0 or 1. The 100 hammers spent on the settler is 3 Axes 10 turns earlier, which changes everything in the timing.

If you settle a cottage city at t100 and that by t170 you're going to war... well it'll be useless in your maneuver, it's just slightly helping you to pay the bills... it takes 70 turns for a cottage to mature into a town and those cottage cities usually have slow growth... you're looking at a city bringing in maybe 20~30 commerce but costing you around 8~15 gpt (city cost+civic maintenance+increased city maintenance for other cities).
OTOH, a food/hammer city settled at t100 can grow, whip infrastructure and then be a whipping center 4->2 contributing hundreds of hammers in a short matter of turns.

Similar for Oxford, if you're stuck on 6 cities, odds are you'll be delaying OU in the capital because of the last city(ies) you settled if they are not set up to reach the same level of maturity as your other cities.

If you otherwise want to wait post-Democracy for any plans you might have, then there's not really a too-late-date. Just make sure to remember that the fastest way into accumulating the most commerce is through farms ;)

Rule of thumb, courtesy of DaveMcW: to maximize commerce via cottages, have your food surplus match your happy cap room.
So if you have 10 :) left, get +10 food surplus and gradually change farms to cottages as you gain population points.

Look not how well a city can be at size 20, but how soon it can contribute.

Captured barb cities can be turned into cottage cities later as you are likely to get it at a large size (in my case, they came with cottages already) and especially if you have a few forests to chop out the granary.

I've had many many games where the only city I'd cottage is the capital and instead take the AI's cottages using my farms in other cities ;)

~~~

My schedule is hell lately, it'll be a while before I can even start working on the next update.
 
Overview at 660AD.

It's now been about 1 month since I've played this game so I really don't remember what I was thinking at the time. Nevertheless, I did some micromanagement of the cities as I saw fit if I were once again playing from that point onwards.
Taking a rest to re-evaluate your position every now and then is never a bad idea, you can catch a lot of your own mistakes or find something good to do at the same time.

Timbuktu
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Since it is at happy and health cap, working extra mines is not a bad idea while I acquire extra resources. Moreover, I've been slacking on hammers all game long and I want the Market done before I turn off research again, I'd be wasting a lot of gold otherwise. (103*.25 = 25 or 26 empire wise at 0% gold which is quite significant)

Oxford University cannot be started yet, iIrc I wanted to have the Market done first so whipping the other Universities earlier wasn't that good. That and poor planning on my part as I will show in the next round.

This is really a commerce city over a hammer city, until Workshops/Watermills become useful, not enough hills or food otherwise. It's not excellent at whipping early on due to the single food special, farming 2 floodplains takes 14 worker turns which is an aeon too much early game.


Djenne
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This University really needs to be whipped this turn, the city is spoiling 1f/t, meaning a new population on a grassland farm would actually not add anything except maintenance, which is a negative. Unless there were some extra hammer tiles to be had (and a valid reason to not whip), whipping is the only sensible thing to do here. Besides, I gave some of the city's tile away to the fish city so it's working 2 useless specialists that are eating 4f each turn... the city will grow back very quickly at +10 surplus.

Getting a granary in your second city is normally only really useful if it has good food specials and if you have a lot of land to settle. In this case, I had other plans for this city so it was unable to help the expansion until very very late in the game.


Kumbi Saleh
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Also now unhealthy, the plains cottage is just like a 0F1H1C tile... very bad. Since my blocking plan worked here, a granary was the most useful thing to build, although getting the monument was also good to acquire the last tiles and push WvO away for as long as possible.
Really a pure cottage city with no production whatsoever other than its food surplus. Whipping away the 4 shown tiles would make the city produce as much research immediately again the next turn via the University boost.


Gao
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A jack-of-all-trades, I cottaged it early to help pay the bills and so that Kumbi Saleh would be better off later as it would take over the cottages prepared by this city. I really should have farmed over the flood plains cottages at some point to whip here more often, but my workers were usually too busy. Still a weak city with low production capacity. The lighthouse was not worth the 60H it cost so far as I kept the population low. Here a Monument first was better than a granary to acquire the good tiles.


Walata
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A really poor city... but bringing a scarce health resource. You can see really poor management as the city is 1 food from growing yet is working a stupid Engineer specialist.
The University was just queued in because I was too lazy to figure out which 6 cities would be the fastest to complete them -_-
It was a worker pump early game as I never really had time to improve it.


Marble City
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Settled before turn 100... and in this poor state... I never spared much workers to help improve it which might have gotten me the horses I wanted. Stupid move from my part. Before Civil Service, the city is only good for the marble it brings as it has no food whatsoever.


Ligurian, first barb city
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A really neat city from the barbs, fantastic food surplus and great amount of rivers for cottaging. Even though I got it late, it was at a decent size with several mature cottages already so getting the infrastructure in took no time even with no production.


Niani
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One of the 2 cities I regret settling so late... it has amazing food surplus capacity which could have been used on GPP. But it was always too behind. It could whip the University the next turn with the right micro, but you'd waste 1 population for nothing as the Mint was never done. Better get the University somewhere else.


Yayoi, second barb city


Awdaghost
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[URL=http://img638.imageshack.us/i/mousescreenshot010.jpg/]
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The second city I regret settling so late, with 1.5 food specials (rice just doesn't compare to corn, pigs or even wheat), very decent production and the ability to grow cottages for the capital... sigh. This is why you need more production. Get this city 10 turns earlier and you have the ability to gain back lost time on cottage growth earlier.
It would have been better long term to be settled 1S but at the time, getting the cows improved ASAP was required so that meant settling them in the first ring.


Tadmekka
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Filler city with Iron and can grow a few cottages for the capital... that's about it.


Research is at 500 after all...
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Rough research time in turns of various tech paths. Anything with paths leading up to it you can divide by 1.2 (or 1.4 etc) to get a rough estimate of actual turns needed.
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Diplo standings
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Monte's plotting war... I have my scout scourging his land to find his SoD since his target can't be DG.


Finances
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337 commerce
510-13 raw beakers through commerce means 497/337 conversion rate or about 1.25:1

399-16 raw gold through commerce means 386/337 conversion rate or about 1.145:1

What do we learn? Not much that we really know already, but it just confirms that 1 raw gold is more valuable than 1 raw beaker at the moment in my empire. A Courthouse bringing in 6.5 gpt every turn is better than a library bringing in 5.4 beakers on average. Even if the courthouse is more expensive, I have to consider that some cities have higher research multipliers as well so the longer I can stay at 100% research, the better. Also, the other expansion phase is coming.


F8 screen, HC is leading empire-wise, SB is leading culture wise haha!
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Demographics - nothing too horrific
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Top 5 cities... and interesting sight.
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I've started working on the next round already so it probably won't be as long as the previous one took.
 
nice another update(soon)! How is the tech situtation and are you staying clear of any war? the aztecs arent coming your way i hope
 
Text added, image cluster cleaned up a bit. A few more days will be necessary for the next update.

nice another update(soon)! How is the tech situtation and are you staying clear of any war? the aztecs arent coming your way i hope

Tech situation can be seen in the previous update.

Of course the Aztecs are coming my way, whaddya think :p
 
I mean the tech trading situation :)
Yes... from the previous update.
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Looking at the tech screen am I to understand that you are going to self tech guilds / banking etc and not trade for that stuff?

I usually try to avoid trading for Guilds-Banking as they are pretty cheap and fast to research. That and I traded quite a bit already in this game so I'd need a few Friendly Hindu AIs at some point to keep on trading.
 
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